Welcome And Noosa Conference Banter

SPEAKER_02 0:10

And hello everyone. We're gonna talk about the edge today. I've got amazing speaker all the way from Australia joining us today. His name is Paul Chapman. I've had a fantastic time with him at the conference last month, and he's kindly agreed to come on the podcast with me and share about what he does and who he is. Hello, Paul.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Z, hello, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:36

I'm good. We had such a good laugh. And then I pressed the button and also not ready for this.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

That's right. This is the official version, but we just had a little chat off screen, yes. It is. No, I'm I'm well. How are you going?

SPEAKER_02 0:51

I'm good, thank you. I'm gonna call you Chappie because I feel like that's how I know you. Is that okay with you?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Of course. Yeah, and you're happy for me to call you Z, yes?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Z is fine, just for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

We're not gonna allow it for anyone else. That's right. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

So, Cheppy, you and I had a fantastic time at the Noosa conference last month.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Yes, Mike Perro, New Zealand in uh which was actually held in Noosa. Yeah, it was it was fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

And we both were on stage, not at the same time sometimes, and we both didn't fall off the stage, which was an absolute highlight.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

I've actually on stage when I was and you were MC for Noosa, and you did a cracking job, by the way. When I was MC at a different conference, I actually sat on a chair and fell through the chair. I actually fell through and got stuck in the chair. So these things do happen. But no, we we had uh we had a good conference where uh there were no accidents, which was which was a plus.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

That was good. Thank you so much, Sheppy. Now let's talk about who you are and what you do. Who

Paul’s Story From London To Melbourne

SPEAKER_02 2:02

is Paul Chapman?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Wow, you're starting off with what time is it? It's 9 30 in the morning. I've only had one coffee. Who am I? Well, let's give you let's give you the 30 seconds. So I was I was born and raised in England. I was born in London, grew up over there, and I I did the usual stuff, you know, you go to school and then manage to go to university. When I finished uni, I then moved to Perth, Western Australia, with uh with my parents and my and my brothers, and I've been here ever since. I've lived in Perth. I also lived in Sydney for a while, and now I'm based in Melbourne. And so fast forward, I'm now 59, I'm 60 next year. And that's it. That's here we are.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

You do not look like you're approaching 60. Honestly, when I first met you, I was like, oh, there's a guy my age.

unknown 3:04

No.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Oh, I definitely am, trust me. First thing in the morning I feel it, my body. You get you just get sore. It's it's a funny thing. But no, I'm and and I joke with people that that's because I never saw, because I grew up in the UK, it's because I didn't see sun for the first 20 20 years of my life. But uh no, I I don't I don't know. It's just yeah, I think I think if you uh if you just have a positive, happy approach to life, then hopefully you don't age as quickly. We'll we'll see.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

You will you will have a young heart. Chapi, what do you do? What

What Nine To Five Edge Means

SPEAKER_02 3:40

does nine to five edge, apart from Dolly Parton song? What does nine to five?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah, fair fair enough. So nine to five edge is my that's my sort of business. And I call it it's like a training and consulting firm, though essentially it's it's really just me. I have a couple of people who support me, you know, someone who does my videos and and some marketing people who help my stuff create my stuff, but but essentially it's just my business. I needed a business name, and I always think that every single person has something special about them, a bit of an edge. And so nine to five edge is is really about trying to find your edge at work. That's kind of like the catchphrase. And so what I do as part of that is as you saw in NUSA, I'm a speaker, so I speak about a couple of different topics. I also MC conferences, and when I'm not doing that, I run workshops, so I do training workshops for groups of people, again, on various sort of work skills. And the last thing that I do is I used to call it like a coach, where where you sort of coach people individually, but it's not really it's not really a coach because the people that I coach are already very they're very well skilled and they're very successful. And so I'm trying to find the right word for what it is, and and a good friend of mine who who we bounce ideas off, he said, Well, you're more of an advisor, you're more like an advisor. So when I when I do technically coach people, all I'm really doing is acting as a sounding board for them and someone who challenges their their thinking. So, but you know, historically that would be called a coach. But those are the three, they're the three main things I do.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

What do you enjoy the most?

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Look, I always like being I like being in front of uh of a group. I just think and you and you would have seen this at the at the conference in in Noosa, you can just get such a good energy when you've got a group of people who well hopefully they want to be there. I was about to say who haven't been forced to be there. That's right. If the group if people are forced to be there, it's not so good. But whether it's whether it's like running a training workshop or whether it's getting on stage in front of a group of people, if you've got a really good group and they're and they're motivated people and they you know they want to be there and they want to share ideas, I don't know. I just get I get a lot of I get a big buzz and a lot of energy from that. So that that's probably the part that I that's the part I enjoy the most. And also I I I love the fact that because it's my own business and and look like like many people who who would listen to this podcast, I've worked in corporate. So we all know that when you work in corporate, there's a trade-off there because you have to how can I put this? You have to kind of behave yourself. Yep, you know, the co and fair enough, right? Because the corporate says, well, you work for us and we've got certain standards, so you have to sometimes you have to curb a little bit of maybe what your natural personality might be. Some companies would argue no, you don't, but I think you can you kind of do. And so because I run my own business, I don't need to do that. And and it means that I can truly be me and I can say what I what I want, and you know, you you live or die by the sword, right? So if you if you say something really stupid, no one's gonna hire you again. So it's uh it's a bit of a double-edged sword, but it gives me the freedom. Being self-employed gives me the freedom that I want without the regular paycheck that corporate gives you.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Yeah, I'm getting a sense that you're very much like me in terms of having stability can be seen as boring. And and the way, and the way I mean it in the most nicest way is I think when we live on that roller coaster of you just don't know what's gonna happen next, you just don't know what's coming next, and you are the creator of your own destiny, and being that creator, being the one in charge, uh to able to be able to shape your week, to shape your day, to shape who you're working with. Because I get a sense of you, you like me, where we can choose who we want to work with. We want to work with people that are willing to be working with us, right? We are we want to work with you don't want to be standing there banging your hand against the wall. Like, what's the point of me providing the advice if you're not gonna take any of my advice on board? You yeah, you want to see that car traveling from point A to point B by using your advice, by using that petrol in the engine.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah, yeah, I am I am like that. And look, and and look, being self-employed isn't for everyone, and it's also not for everyone at certain times of their lives. So previously, you know, a long time ago, I was a financial advisor and I was an advisor for about 10 years. Uh, and during that time I became self-employed, I had a a really good business partner, and we built and grew a successful practice. We had you know half a dozen staff. So I've been I've I've been self-employed before, and then I went back into corporate. And look, corporate isn't necessarily a bad thing because if you get the right job, it can it can be fantastic, just like just like any job. But I I've come to a point where a few years ago I I just decided that look, I've got one last you know, one last role in me. What's that gonna what's that gonna look like? And I think a lot of people do that in life. They just get to a point where they sort of say, okay, well, you know, what do I want? What what do I want over the next few years? Or even some people even have a 10-year view. I never really have that, but I just sort of think, what do I want, what do I want to do? And I was I I was just lucky enough to be in a position where you know I could take that that gamble because if you are going to go self-employed, as you would know, those first few years they they can be tough. I didn't earn very much money in my first year being self-employed again, and it took a while to get to a position where you know you're paying your bills and you're earning some decent money, but you just got to be in the right position. I simply wanted to do work that I enjoyed, and as you said, with people that I like. And that's kind of my that's kind of my motto. I'm not for everyone. And you would have seen that in news. I'm not for I'm not for everyone, right? Some people, some people like me, some people don't. And and that's perfectly that's perfectly okay. But for those who do and who want to work with me, I like you, I know I can do really good work. And so that's where that's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

What are

AI Anxiety And The Human Advantage

SPEAKER_02 11:01

the main challenges you see that the businesses are facing at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Well, I I guess apart from the you know, there's obviously that the current sort of economic uncertainty and so on. But I I don't know. I've been I've been working now for almost 40 years full-time. That always seems to exist. Yeah. Everyone's worrying about something. Everyone always worries about something. And of course, the and again, we we we've talked about this not just in in Noosa, but I've talked about this at a few conferences that I've I've been lucky enough to go to recently. Of course, the big talk of the town at the moment is of course AI. That's and we laughed about it when I said, you know, I'm not here to talk to the audience about AI. I said I'll leave that to the tech bros and the tech gals. But that's the kind of like that's the that's the current buzz. And that seems to be what a lot of people are concerned about. But I don't know. I I I've always been quite a positive person, and I just think whatever whatever gets thrown at you, you just you have to you just have to deal with it. And if you are doing good enough work and you're happy to question yourself and you're happy to learn things, well then regardless of what your business is, you should be able to be successful.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

So do you think this is now more important than ever to discover what age do you have and who you are as a person? Because you're suddenly competing against the machines, and the machines don't really have the same age as you do.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah, well, yeah, good point. Yeah, it probably is a more opportune time for people to look at themselves and say, Okay, well, what is my edge? What is my special something? What is it that sets me apart from every everyone else? I mean, some you know, some people like you're you know, you're bubbly, you're good, you're good on stage, but not everyone is, right? A lot of people we even saw that in the audience. You have people who, if you said to them, hey, come out, come up out of your seat and come up here on stage, they just they would absolutely dread that. Some people are terrified of public speaking, right? But on the flip side, maybe they're really good one-on-one with someone, maybe they've got fantastic listening skills, you know, or maybe, maybe they are they're just superb at building Excel spreadsheets. I mean, it's you know, every what I mean is everyone has something about them that is just that that little bit better, and and I think look, there's no way, for example, with the machines, and I say this knowing that of course one day a machine might may well be my boss, and fair enough, and hello to all the future machines, please don't kill me. But you know, it's um yeah, you I think you've just gotta, I think you've just you've got to kind of realize that we're not we're not gonna be smarter than the machines, right? So that one's gone. So the whole intelligent thing, we we will lose that. Already the machines are technically they know more stuff than we do, quite simply because it's just facts. So if your edge was, well, I'm just smarter than the average bear, that one's gone. That that one's no, you need something else. And so other traits that we have, such as the ability for you and I to talk and truly connect, or you know, people call sometimes call it empathy and so on. But these sorts of things that at the moment, machines, or as far as we know, they can't feel stuff, right? So that's where they lack. We feel stuff, and every single person and every person who's perhaps listening to this to this podcast will know the frustration that you have if, for example, you've let's say you've got something that's uh you you've bought something and it's the wrong product, and so you you hop online and you go to their help desk and suddenly and you're saying, Hey, look, uh, you've sent me this, it's the wrong thing. And you know, you know when it's a bot, right? An automated bot that is trying to essentially mimic being a human being. But if you've ever done that, and you then get to the point where you're saying, Look, you're really not helping me. I just want to speak to a human being. And I don't know how many times I've done that online where I've just said, please, please, just let me speak to a human who can conceptually understand my frustrations and so on. And I think that that whole thing there, which is massive, which is about understanding and empathy and kindness and and so on, as I say at the moment, machines, at least to our knowledge, they don't have that. And therefore, those are the kind of skills, those sort of people skills, and there's a a huge wad of them, they're the kind of things that I think people should be pursuing more and learning how to do them. And one of the big things is learn how to do this, how to truly connect with another human being, talk, listen, understand, question, and so on. So if you pursue that, well, I think it's gonna take a while before the robots can catch us on that one.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Well, at least we can run away together, right? At least you'll have your own tribe of people that you've connected with.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Yeah, fingers crossed. The machines will track us down eventually, but that's all right.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah, well, that's the thing. I think what I really enjoyed about us meeting for the first time when we were in Noosa was that connection, that humor that we had. And again, I believe with machines, you can't fully get that humor going sometimes. It's you know, you say something and the machine thinks you're saying something completely different. You can't just crack a joke and have someone laughing at it or challenge you on your thinking when the machines are built in to please you, they're built in to provide information.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

The machines weren't happy. The machines were listening and they cut us off. Absolutely they did. Absolutely did. I was wondering why. You were just you were talking about humor.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yes, I was just saying that um when we were in Noosa, what I really enjoyed was us connecting over humor. And again, that's something you know, you don't have to be an extrovert for that. But if you've got that humor, machines often don't pick up on humor. They, you know, even if I ask my Gemini to crack me a joke, it says the joke really fast. There is no poses, there is no intonation, there is no punchlines that get delivered at the right time. So I feel like, yeah, what makes us humans is all those skills, is as you said, listening, connecting, you know, having that bit of a laugh with each other because laughter increases the chances of people connecting.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and and humor is is one of the I mean, it's one of the most fantastic things that human beings have invented in many respects. I mean, the and and and again that comes back to again with a lot of people being worried about AI. The thing is that currently machines don't truly understand, right? When they're talking to you, they sound like they do, but they don't really understand. It's not true understanding. It's just a it's just a large language model that's just spewing out what it considers to be the optimum answer. That's all that it really is. It doesn't really understand the nature of the conversation, it doesn't really understand you, it just kind of pretends to. And certainly with humour, and humour is a very personal thing, we all got different senses of humour, but humour can be incredibly subtle, and and machines, they just they quite simply just don't understand that yet. I mean, again, who knows what the what the future can be, but until they become sentient, until they become self-aware or whatever it's called, they just don't have that. And I think as long as you recognize that whenever you're using AI, to know that look, the reality is even even though it might sound like the you can talk to Gemini, you can talk to Claude or Chat GPT or whatever your whatever your AI of choice is, as long as you realize that look, this computer doesn't really understand, that is part of the human edge straight away. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

I love that.

Money Lessons From Working Class Roots

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Cheppy, we're gonna move away from talking about computers because I don't want to disconnect us again.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Yes, good smart move.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

What I'm always curious about when I get people on my show is I really want to dive into their money beliefs, and this is gonna come out of blue to you because I don't think that was on the question chart.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

But this is something I really it wasn't in the it wasn't in the 60 odd questions that uh that was sent to me, no, but that's the I'd say, okay, you're very well prepared. I've got to say that, very well prepared.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

That's because the machine created that list and it didn't know where my brain was gonna take me. I like to interview successful people, especially about their money, money beliefs, money habits. What did they know about money growing up and where are they now with their with their money journey? Because I feel like the more we share those stories with people that are just on that starting line, going, Oh, you know, I had a rough life, I don't know anything about money, I don't think I can make it in life. And then if we can share those stories, because I think there's a true value in it for people to connect and understand that life happens, but how do you overcome those challenges? And you know, how do you make better? So I'm really curious to know about you because life wouldn't have been easy for you to go from England to Australia to Perth now in Melbourne, like you did a bit of a ticket tour all over the show. So I want to know about Chappie 40 years ago. Take me there.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well Look, uh again, like probably many of the people who might be listening to this, you know, you most of us most of us aren't born uh rich, right? That's that's and that's just the very nature of how the world works, right? It's only the top one percent or point one or whatever it is who are rich. So we uh you know I come from a working class uh background, and and it was and it's just the best. It was the best background. I had a fantastic time growing up. I enjoyed, I enjoyed school, we didn't have a lot in terms of sort of money and so on, but that didn't that didn't matter. I I never felt like we we missed out on anything. But I learned I learned early on because I had to do I my mum and dad were very good. They said to me, look, if you want pocket money didn't really exist when I was growing up, you had to, you know, they said you have to go and find a part-time job. So I I did little things like I delivered newspapers. This was a long time ago. I had to deliver newspapers, and and then I worked today in my teens, I worked a supermarket called Tesco's. Most people have heard of Tesco's, they're they're quite big in the UK, similar to Coles and Woolies here. And I and I stacked um supermarket shelves, and you know, and every everyone's got their own stories when they're a teenager, they they they do a sort of job. But I tell you what that taught me, and it taught me a couple of good lessons. The first one was I I couldn't believe how hard I had to work to get this what was relatively small amount of money, and and I just remember thinking, and that changed my whole attitude towards money. It really did. It was like, wow, this is this is hard to to earn, just this. And it therefore made me value what uh what what I could buy with the money because I thought, well, if it's that hard to earn it, I need I need to spend it on good stuff. And so that was a big that was a big lesson for me. It also taught me that, hey, I didn't want to, and no disrespect to anyone who does stack supermarket shells for a living. I always walk past them these days and just go, hey, thanks, because it is it's a tough job. But I just realized that wasn't what I wanted to do for the rest of my life, and therefore it was another lesson that said, you have to study, you have to learn, you have to think, you have to build new skills. What are those skills? What's valuable? What will human beings pay for? All that type of stuff. So even just in that, there was a s there was a lesson in that simply through stacking shelves at a at a supermarket. And the second big one was I had a my granddad on my mum's side, he was called George, which is a very sort of old-fashioned English name, George. But he was he was just a beautiful man, he was a beautiful human being. And early on, I remember him saying to me, I said, I can't remember what I wanted to buy, a football or something. And I said, I don't have enough, I just don't have enough money. And he said, if you can't, but he said, boy, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. And I and I just looked at him and I said, I I don't understand what that means, granddad. And he laughed and he said, Don't worry, one day you will. And so again, that sticks, it's funny what sticks with you. And again, with your audience, there'll be memories that sort of stick with you. Of course, now I realize what he was saying was if you don't have the money, like I see people, for example, borrowing money to go on holiday, I just shake my head, I just think, what are you doing? In other words, if you don't have the money to do the thing, or or people who borrow money to buy a television or whatever, you know, like just disposable goods, I just I just think you just shouldn't be doing that. In other words, if you can't afford, if you haven't got that cash sitting there, then you can't do it. And and I learned early on the only things really you should be borrowing money for is obviously a house, if you're lucky enough to get a house, and maybe a car in your earlier years, because a car is quite a big purchase and you might need it to get around and so on. And the final thing is you might borrow to invest in, for example, a business, or you might maybe invest in a you know an investment portfolio if you've got the right financial advisor or all that sort of stuff, but that's it, apart from that, but you never borrow money to consume, like don't borrow money to to get that new TV or to buy some nice new clothes or you know a go on holiday or whatever the other examples that I used. And I think coming from that just that position, that was the basis. And I learned very early on the the the other final important lesson, which was always where you can spend less than you earn. You still with me? I got you back, you disappeared again. Oh, the machines aren't happy with me. I've I've clearly talking too much.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

I've never had this before, by the way. It's all you.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

That's all right. It's the beauty of editing, you'll be able to edit all of this.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

I hope so. Otherwise, our listeners will be going, what happened there?

SPEAKER_00 27:53

That's fine, it's it's real life. But does that that that's it? That's those are my those are my fundamental lessons that I learned early, and and they have served me well in terms of money.

Social Media Comparison And Gratitude

SPEAKER_02 28:08

I think that's super, super important now more than ever to convey that message because I feel like a lot of us get stuck in the world of the social media hasn't been good. You know, it's good in some ways, but in a lot of ways, it hasn't been good for people that are seeing life only a glimpse of that life where they think, oh, these people are having an amazing life. Why am I not having this amazing life? Why are they going on holidays and having flash cars and eating out at fancy restaurants? I want to have that life. And to keep up with the Joneses, I'm gonna go and get a loan to get a car. I'm gonna go and get a loan to go on holiday because I want to have the same sort of lifestyle. So we're constantly competing with each other to have better, bigger, more. And I don't think that's a solution to life. I think there will always be someone that will have more. That's one thing for sure, right? There will always be Elon Musk that's as much as he is. Like we we cannot compete with each other. And I think once you understand the true value, and once you're fully grateful for what you have, I think that's when things start making sense. But to get to that point, and this is what I really want to, and this is my hope for this show, is to showcase to people that being grateful for what you have is a first step. And then second step is where do you actually want to go? Not because your friends are going, not because your neighbors are doing, but where do you want to go personally? Where do you want to take yourself? Where do you want to take your family? What journey do you want to have in life? And at what cost? Everything has its price, everything has its cost, and what are you prepared to pay for it? And I think until people truly understand and ask themselves those questions, it's really hard to change that mindset, to shift that perspective. Would you agree with that, Cheppy?

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Yeah, absolutely. What's the isn't there a uh it's kind of like a cliche or a saying, but it's something like comparison is the thief of joy or something like that. Comparison. Um I'm I'm actually I'm gonna use our machines. Yeah, there you go. Comparison is the thief of of joy. And so, in other words, you know, if you if you are measuring your life or your success or your happiness or whatever as a comparison to other people, you're you're in a world of pain. Yeah, and again, as you say, social media, I look, I think social media is an amazing thing. I think I just I think it's so I I you know, I re I love being able to go on YouTube or Instagram, like I like to cook, right? And I go on there, and people are cooking these amazing things, and they're sharing their recipes and their tips and their traps, and I just think, wow, this is this is incredible. You know, years ago it didn't exist, I'd have to go and find a cookery book with recipes in it. I don't have to do that anymore. It's just instant. And I think that's the beautiful side of of social media, and there's a lot of good stuff that happens there, but equally there is a flip side to it, as you've said, and if you if you allow yourself to look at these lives of other people, and let's be honest, right? Everyone tries to portray their life, generally speaking. I'm saying here, not everyone, but most of the time on social media, it's oh wow, look at me, look at my life is so great, and and so on, but the reality might not be like that. Yeah, and and everyone has, you know, we all have good days, we all have bad days. But I think if you yeah, if you're looking at your life with a view to oh, seeing someone else and thinking, oh look, look, Z's life is so fantastic. I I want a life like hers, I don't think that's healthy, as beautiful as your life is. But what I mean is it's I think you've just got to be independent-minded. Yes, I think you I'm always grateful. I I've I've lost a couple of people in my life who who have passed and who passed before their time is due. You know, they died, they died young. And and that's that's just a wake-up call, that kind of thing. And sometimes it's a bit extreme, but those are the types of things where you just like I'm I'm grateful every day when I get up and I get to do this, and I go and have a cup of coffee. And you know, we got we got married, myself and my wife got married a couple of years ago. My best friend John bought us a coffee machine. Every time I go to the coffee machine, I just think, wow, how lucky am I I can make nice coffee at home. It's and it's and it really is the little things that if you can develop an appreciation for them, and develop an appreciation for what you have versus what versus that flip side of what I don't have, that shift in that mindset right there, that sounds a bit corporate, I don't mean it to be like that, but you know, that change in mindset from I'm not gonna worry about what I don't have, I'm gonna focus more on what I do have and how lucky I am, even just to be alive and kicking, you know, and have a roof over your head and so on. When you when you do that, well, suddenly the world is a lot better, and and and you can make better decisions about what it like you say about okay, so given that most people do want to improve their lives and and and get and get better. We all do that. That's happy with that, but then it becomes a much more realistic what is the next what's the next step for me?

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Do you

Fear, Networks And Taking The Next Step

SPEAKER_02 34:07

think people are scared to take the next step even though they know it's the right step for them? Do you see that? Does fear come into play?

SPEAKER_00 34:20

I think all emotions come into play, and again, we're all one of your and it was funny. One of the questions that you did send me, which I will see, I am I am almost 60. Look, I have to have reading glasses. What was it? It was an it was one of the early ones. Oh yeah. After more than 30, 40 years of working with teams, what do you understand people that now that you didn't understand earlier in your career? It's such a good question. And what I've learned is everyone is so different. And when I was when I was growing up, I just thought, well, we're all fundamentally the same and and so on. But having I've worked with thousands of different people over the years, my goodness me, everyone is so different. So and also the the whole gamut of feelings comes into play whenever you're making a decision. So fear will be there, greed will be there, hope will be there, excitement. So everything comes into play. Again, it's just how you it's just how you manage that, I think, as a as a human being. And one thing I I I do think also is you shouldn't let risk, uh, sorry, you shouldn't let fear dominate your your thinking. I don't think that sometimes fear is a good thing. It's you know, it's designed to s to save us as human beings, but but I don't think too I don't think too much fear is uh healthy. And I certainly wouldn't want to be someone who lived in in fear. So I think if you yeah, if you have that, then what you need is you need good people in your life that you can bounce ideas off. And if you've got a good network, then hopefully there are people who say, hey, you know what, yeah, I see why you're a bit scared of doing that, but I reckon you should do it, you should go for it. So having a having a good network of people you you know, trust, and who genuinely care for you, that's a big one, and that will help you as well.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

I love that. I absolutely love that. One thing that really stuck with me through my life is when I used to work in a bank, and one of the first training videos I watched, this beautiful man said this phrase, anxiety is the price you pay for unprepared mind. And it really stuck with me because I feel like it's true, you know, if you're unprepared, this is where anxiety kicks in, this is where the fear kicks in, this is where all the human emotions kick in. But if you get your mind to prepare for the things, then you can overcome those feelings and then you can set the path. It's sort of like you've got to know where you're going relatively. But if you've got your torch, your backpack, your resources, your tools, a snack bar, you know, even if you get a little bit lost, you'll find your way out. But if you've come completely unprepared to the dark forest, then yeah, you're gonna be pretty much screwed, and maybe the beer will come out and get you. I don't know. But I feel the profession that you and I are in is a lot to do with humans and shifting that, you know, shifting that mindset, working on that. And I think it's again, it's more important than ever because if you can find the right people in your corner, that's when you can see that change much faster than trying to do it on your own.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's the it's the beauty of having a good network. And also, there's another lesson in there for people in terms of what skills do I build? Well, building a good network, for example. I mean, that would be a that would be a skill if you have that, if you have that skill, or if if you don't, how do I get that? Because having a whole group of people around me that I that I trust, who I care for, and who care for me means that you can be then vulnerable with them. You can share with them things that you know maybe I I am a bit fearful of this or this worries me or whatever it is, but that will help immensely. But getting back to also you and you're saying you worked in a in a bank, I bet I bet that was fun.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

You know, um I'm kicking I'm kicking myself that I haven't written a book back then because I used to be on a teller, right? And I used to have the stories every day. I would come home with hundreds of stories because when you had the teller counter, people come in and you meet a variety of people. And I remember one time at the dinner party we had some friends over, and I was telling them a story of what happened, obviously without you know naming names or identifying people, but I'll be I'll be saying, you know, this and this happened. And I remember he was a lecturer, he turned around one day, he goes, Look, you need to write a book, and it could be tellers, you know, tell a girl stories. And I laughed at it, but now looking back at it, I'm like, damn, I wish I did that because there were so many fantastic stories.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

I'd have bought the book, Z. I would definitely have bought that book.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

It was great, and but also sorry, it's sorry, yeah.

Preparation As The Cure For Anxiety

SPEAKER_00 39:33

As you were saying with the uh with the the the the fellow who came out with that phrase about anxiety, I see that a lot when when it comes to public speaking or presenting. Right? So and and you and I, and again, you you had to prepare, and you always have to prepare a lot when you're MC, you were MC in Noosa. When you are prepared, it just takes away so much of that anxious feeling or that nervousness, or again, some people have true fear of of speaking, getting up in front of a group of people and speaking. But when you're prepared, like I always think whenever I if if before I get up on if I go to a conference and I'm due to speak on a stage, if I'm prepared, you can't hurt me, if that makes if that makes sense. Nothing can nothing can hurt me because I'm I've I've put in the work, I've I'm I'm prepared. It doesn't mean that you can answer every question, and and a good human being in some respects shouldn't be able to answer every question because it actually means that you're curious, you're inquisitive, and you're willing to learn. So as long as you if but if the only thing I would be scared of is if I turned up at a conference and I hadn't prepared, and someone said, All right, can you just get up and talk for half an hour or 40 minutes, then I'd be then I would be scared. But the way to avoid that is quite simply to put in the work. And so I think that you your your friend or your colleague or mentor whoever it was that talked about anxiety being linked to being unprepared is is spot on. And as long as you you put in you put in that preparation, you'll always be alright.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Yeah, and again, that that relates to anything in life, not just public speaking or home on. I think it applies to anything in life, you know, and in in relationships at work, you know, you've got to be prepared for things.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Yes, yeah. Or you've got to put in the hard work as well. As we know, if you want if you want your relationships to thrive and and be good, then you know, a a relationship does need does need a bit of work from from all sides, you know, whether it's work relationships, personal relationships, whatever it is, or even you know, even meeting a stranger requires effort because you have to say hello, you have to then be interested, you have to ask good questions. So as long as you're as long as you're prepared to do that, you should be okay. And yeah, I'm not I'm not a massively, I'm not a massively anxious person. I just I just get on with stuff. Um so but again, we're all we're all different.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

I keep I keep having that conversation you and I had in the back of my mind when we were in Noosa, and then I I was a bit of a daredevil, and I introduced you in that in that way as well. When um you told me something offline off stage the night before, after a few drinks, and then I said, Can I introduce you that way? And you were like, Yeah, sure. And then I just ran with it. I don't think you expected it.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Yes. No, I didn't, but again, I'm I'm AOK. I don't, yeah, it's I I'm a pretty open book, and you know, when you when you meet people that you get on well with, I think I think being being guarded is not necessarily a good thing. Uh and you know, if you want to develop a you know a relationship with someone in terms of friendship or whatever it is, I think you just gotta, you know, you gotta be able to be open, and you've also gotta the big thing is you've got to be prepared to laugh at yourself, and I'm definitely prepared to laugh at myself a lot more than I was in my teenage years, I can tell you that.

Being Yourself, Your Tribe And Not Being Liked

SPEAKER_00 43:36

So it's a good trait.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

I find it as well. I find the older I'm getting, the less the less serious I am. Well, I'm still serious and I'm still professional, but there is this expectation and of being a certain way. It's like, well, I am who I am, and I think I'm coming more into who I am. And if there are, as you said in the beginning of the interviews, there are people that will like you, and there are people that won't. You know, you're not for everyone. And I think again, this is a very important lesson for those younger listeners that are still trying to find a place. To fit in is that over time you will discover that there will be people that you can fit in with really well, and you don't have to change who you are. You are who you are, you know. I'm not saying be an a-hole or be a dick to people, but like you know, if you're genuinely who you are, people will be drawn to you, but on the flip side of it, there will be people that won't like that, and then that way you can just get rid of those fake people out of your life straight away as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yeah, well, again, I mean I know we discussed it a little bit earlier, but it it's again that's another it's another lesson that that you we all need to sort of learn, and you and you do learn through simply through life and working and so on, is that you all you all have certain people that you are drawn to. You know, they call it in the uh they call them your tribe and all that sort of stuff, but it's quite simply it's it's it's people that are that are like-minded. And that doesn't mean that they agree with you on everything. Um some of my closest friends are people who challenge me very much and make me think differently, and and we have different opinions, and but it's it's good, it's done in a it's done in a healthy way. But I do I remember one of my when one of the jobs I had when I was managing big teams, is I managed a team at Suncorp. And most people have heard of of Suncorp, a big, well, big business in in Australia, not necessarily for any international listeners, but I managed a team there of salespeople. I remember one guy, he was a lovely, he was a lovely young guy at the time, who's one of the youngest salespeople in the team, and he became um he became the youngest, what we call a BDM, or as you would know, business development manager, which really just means a salesperson. He became the youngest BDM in uh in at Suncorp because I I promoted him because he was he just had a he just had such a fantastic attitude. And anyway, I remember early on, and he was we were talking, he was only 22, 23 at this time, and I remember him coming to me. We had in one of my one-on-ones with him, I had monthly one-on-ones with all my staff, and and he was a bit down, and I remember saying to him, What's the what's the matter? Like something's not quite right. You if you you know, if you manage people the right way, you can pick these things up. And he told me that he'd heard on the vine that a couple of the customers had sort of complained about him and didn't like him, and and he was so bothered by not being liked. And I remember laughing with him and saying, I said to him, You've got to realize not everyone, I said you could be the loveliest person on the planet, you know, Mother Teresa or insert other fantastic good person, someone somewhere will not like you. Yeah, and it was a he's now we're talking 15 almost 20 years later, we're good friends now. Obviously, I don't manage, I'm not his manager anymore. He's a manager, a very successful manager now, a different company. But we laugh we laugh now because now he doesn't care, and and he now realizes, but it's a it's something everyone has to go through that you just you just find out naturally. Some people will like you, some people will be drawn to you, and even if you're a really good human being, it doesn't matter because someone somewhere will just go, I don't like the way you look, the way you walk, the way you talk, your accent. Someone ain't gonna like you. Welcome to the world. The keys just don't let those people get you down.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I feel like there's so much wisdom in this conversation, Chappie, that I hope people get something out of it because this is where the edge is, right? This is where what makes us human, this is what makes us different, and I guess that's the whole core of your business. And I mean we live in a very interesting times where it's so much easier to ignore that stranger by being stuck on your phone and not striking out that conversation. It's so much easier to just retreat into your own world and be disconnected from what's going on around us. So it's more than ever that it takes more effort to be present, it takes more effort to be human and and I think the effort will pay off for those that actually put the effort in.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Yeah, absolutely, Z. Well said as well. Yeah, you you are spot on. And look, we're all guilty of it, right? I I laugh. I like I love trains and uh trams, right? I live in Melbourne and uh I I love getting on a tram. You know, I just I I grew up with public transport when I was a kid in London, so I'm used to it. Not everyone likes public transport, but oh you've gone again. Zee, come back to me. There you are. There you are. Go. I must have public transport. I must have annoyed the robots this morning. I I want to apologize to my overlords. But anyway, I I I was saying, you know, I love public transport. Anyway, you go whenever you get on a tram or a train or a bus or whatever, you watch, and I'm guilty of it as well. Everyone is down looking at their at their phones. You know, we all do it. I'm not having to crack at people, it's just the way society has evolved and what we do. But there is real, there's real fun in sometimes just not doing that, in sometimes just you know, being around a crowd of people and and and just sort of watching and just looking and enjoying life and having that willingness to strike up a conversation with with a stranger. And even that, and you you said it, you talk about people with that having an edge and so on. If you have an ability to strike up a conversation with a stranger, be polite, be interested, ask a few questions, and then bid them farewell as you get off at your next stop. If you can do that, I'll tell you, that is a skill in today's world. So even as something as simple as that is is a real good quality to have.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

And when we say strike hyper conversation with a stranger, we don't mean yell at the stranger or tell them off.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Preferably not, no. No, I'm not. I think yelling is yeah, yelling is not a great communication way to communicate. It's uh it's no, you know, if you have to yell at people, then then maybe things aren't working too well.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

I just thought we'll clarify that point just in case you know with the problem.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

No, there's no, I don't, uh, I don't yell at people, no. I'd only ever yell at someone if they were in danger. I think that's that's what yelling should be reserved for, like look out or something like that. But yeah, anyway, we again another thing you'll discover we all communicate very differently. I've found that out as well.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

Yes, yes. And I think again, a lot of people, you know, that don't think about it may confuse various communication styles for being ignored or not liked or not connected with because they only used to their own style or what they know. And I always come back to this phrase of we know what we know, right? And we don't know what we don't know. And the only way to find out about things we don't know is to learn about them and be curious. So, yes, I often see that when people go, oh, you know, I thought such and such didn't like me because they didn't, you know, do this and that. It's like, well, but that's not who they are. Like that's what who you are, but that's not who they are. And when and when we're now living in this melting pot of cultures and traditions and you know, different people coming from different countries, it's yeah, it's always makes me curious to see how different cultures can connect and find that common ground without feeling offended by each other.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Yeah, again, yeah, you make a you make a really good point. It's but but see how you've got that willingness to be curious about that and you approach it from a positive point of view, you pro you don't approach it in a in a negative way or in a fearful way. That's that's to me how we should all, hopefully, you would hope all of us, regardless of our backgrounds, regardless of where we were born or raised or come from, if you have that, if you're naturally a good human being and you and you you want to, you know, you uh another thing I I said to someone the other day, I'm I'm almost I'm almost 60, I can't believe like where's the time gone, and and and so on. But no matter what what age I live to, I'm always open to friendship. I've met a couple of people around about the same age or a bit younger than me, who have said this ridiculous phrase, oh, I've got enough friends. And and it's just I just don't get it. It's it's so not me. And no matter how old I live, whether I'm you know 70, 80, 90, whatever, I'll always be open to friendship. Because I think it's one of the most beautiful things that we have as human beings. But you can only do that if you are someone who is open to differences in people without you know, without too much negative judgment, I think.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

I feel like you'll be that cool dude in a retirement village that will have like all this friends.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

You'll be the one that everyone will hang out with in the living room and you guys gonna have maybe I'll be the grumpy one, you know, who just wants to play cards or on his solitaire on his own in the corner. Nah, no, I hope no. I hope so.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

I hope so you, it's okay, I'll come visit you.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

Yes, yeah, please do, please do, and and fingers crossed I remember who you are, you know, because I I might not know I might not know who anyone is by that stage, but that's okay. At least every day I'll be a new day.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

That's okay.

Parting Advice For Hard Seasons

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Cheppy on this note, let's wrap this up before we get cut off again. I don't I don't know how many times we got cut off today by this machine. That's all right. What are the parting words of wisdom? What would you tell someone that's struggling right now, that's in their journey of they're a bit lost, they don't know where they're going, life is hard, everyone got more than them. You know, what can you tell them right now to lift their spirits?

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Well, first, just coming back to a few things that we've said really. Don't don't do the comparison thing. There's no need to do that. Start maybe focusing more on what you've on what you do have versus what you perceive you don't have. And build tap into your friends. Most people have got friends, but really tap into your friends. If you're struggling, if I'm ever struggling, the first people that I go to is obviously, you know, my better half and also, you know, all my friends. Friends, friendship is just such a wonderful thing, and people who love you, they really have your best interests at heart. So if you are struggling, I go there. And also remember, just have a perspective if you can on life that life is life is bloody good. I mean, we we live in, and particularly for anyone who's who's listening here in in Australia as as you and I are, regardless of everyone who sorts of moans about politicians and everything else, we're very lucky to live here. I just think we live in a in an amazing country. I feel I feel very privileged to live here. I think it's you know it's a wonderful place. I think that people are I always say people are generally good, most people are good, and so that it comes back full circle to that really focusing on what is it that I have, what do I appreciate, and if I do want to do something, I want to take a next step, what does that look like? And don't feel that you have to find the answers all within yourself, tap into your friendship network, but also there's so much out there on some good stuff on social media, on YouTube, and you know, everywhere where you might find one or two people who you think, you know what, this this person gives good advice. I might listen to some of that and don't be afraid to just take just one step. You don't have to take many, just take the first step. Do that, I think you'll be in a good place.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

I love that. I love that, and I think that's right. You know, this what was it? The the journey starts with a single step.

SPEAKER_00 57:13

Correct. I do believe that that's another that's another we'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure that that is a that is a a phrase, yes.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Yeah, so I think that's true, you know. You just gotta do something. You you gotta do something and start somewhere. You can't just go in leaps and bounds, you just gotta start.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

Yeah, but the key there, as you've said it, the key is to start. Just take that first step and and suddenly you find then the next step comes, momentum, all that sort of stuff. It's a it's a good philosophy.

SPEAKER_02 57:50

Love it. Chapi, thank you so so much. It's been an absolute pleasure, and I can't wait for us to cross over again because we're just two firecrackers that just explode when we're in the same vicinity.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

No, I appreciate it, Zia. Thank you very much for inviting me on. It's been uh, you know, it's it's lovely to catch up with you again. And yeah, a really a good discussion. And as always, you've made you know you've made me think about stuff as well, and and I appreciate that. So thank you too.