Welcome And Meet Caroline

SPEAKER_02 0:10

For those that have been listening to me for a while, you know you never know what to expect from the podcast because we go this way, that way, and the other way. And today I have a very interesting guest. We're gonna talk about mental health and maybe specifically women's health. We'll have a look. Her name is Caroline Tam. Hello, Carolyn. Hello. How are you doing? I'm doing good, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Good. Thank you. We met about a couple of weeks ago. Yes. Well, face to face. We've known each other for as a name to each other. But you've come to one of our events that we were running for the Mint Life Reset for Women. I did.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

It was great. Good. It was very, very informative. And it was just so nice to be in amongst a bunch of women talking about stuff that just really resonated and helped make me feel seen and just validated with the experiences I've been going through. Lovely. And this is what we're here to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

All right. Brace yourselves, everyone. Here we go. So, Carolyn, tell us about who you are. For those that don't know, what's your background?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Oh, my background in a nutshell. So I've got 25 years of social working experience. Branching off from that, I went into life coaching and left the social working sector to go into a more private role where I could more fine-tune the way I wanted to work with people. Along the way, I've written four books. One's published, and that one was created and published inside a like right in the midst of a breakdown. And that was because there were no answers or resources available to me at the time. I'm an adult survivor of childhood trauma, statecare, domestic violence. I'm also a former sex worker. So I speak about mental health with the sector, not against it. So this is definitely from the view of participating and cooperation. It's not to scrutinize or demonize or anything like that. It's it's to come together and start really nutting this out so that we can get much better results. And not just for women, but I mean for men and women and young people, for everyone. But I do specifically look at my work with women.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Yeah. I think these days, and that could be just my view on it, but I feel like with the whole technology, you know, people just don't know how to reset themselves anymore

Technology, Comparison And Isolation

SPEAKER_02 2:45

because they're constantly on. You go on social media, you see people's lives, and you think everyone's life is so great, and my life is not, and you end up comparing yourself.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Very easily, and so common.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

And then you go down that spiral.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Yes. Right? Is that what you see as well? Absolutely. The introduction of technology into our worlds, I would say, over the last 10 years, has contributed immensely to what I would call a mental health epidemic. In one instance, we've got so much instant contact, which you'd like to think would be helpful at our fingertips, but depending on how that technology has been used or how people are viewing it really depends on the outcome for people using it. So the whole experience of seeing people looking good, doing really well in work, just having really fun-filled lives and and looking like they're doing okay, and you're suffering on the inside is uh it's a real isolating track for people. How can you help them? I think the that's a really big question, and I there is no singular answer to that. There's no 12-week program, there's there's no pill, there's no there's no simple fix. But what I have noticed and experienced in my own journey and working with others, two things really stand out to me. One is to really ensure that if someone is speaking to you about their mental health, that you listen. It is such a simple yet not simple thing. It I mean, I I do believe that listening can require skill. It's it's I was about to say listening is a skill.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

And a lot of people, I think, lack it these days. And it's sad because this is something that you can't teach someone. It has to, it's quite closely connected to empathy, I think. Absolutely, and also the awareness of your own self and catching yourself out on oh my god, I've just completely blanked out on whatever the person was saying. Yes, you know, and then feeling probably embarrassed most of the time, going, Oh my god, you know, I don't know what my friend just talked about, or being so engaged in your own problems that you just don't hear anyone else around you.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Yes, absolutely. It's very easy to be up in our own head and have our own things going on, and often too, it's not it's just human nature that often we will begin to hear what we think the person is going to say, and we're already formulating a response rather than just being present with that person to really hear them out on what they're saying. So coming back to that question of you know, like how how can we help, or how can I help, I I would really

Listening As Real Support

SPEAKER_00 6:12

encourage, yeah. I would really encourage practicing just in in everyday life. It could be listening to someone at the till or someone walking down the road with a dog might stop and say hi, or it's a family member or a colleague that that you just really listen to what they are saying.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Because you're right, we live in such a busy world, right? It's so easy to just miss those things. Like you're at the checkout, you're rushing in, you know, and you go, Oh, how are you? How's your day going? And and then you just blank out and you pick up your groceries and you go. Yep. And I get it, everyone's busy, but like if they said to you actually I'm not well, would you hear that? I wonder if people would hear that, you know? Or would they say, Yeah, I'm actually okay, but I'm not? Like, would you hear it in a tone? Because it's not just the words that you're listening in, it's the tone and the delivery of the message.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Yes, exactly. The body language. There is like we were just saying a moment ago, that it's it's a skill, isn't it? That the listening.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

So you've got lots of lived experience, and this is why you're doing what you're doing right now.

A Fragmented Mental Health Journey

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yes. Let's dive a little bit into that if you're okay with this.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Tell me about things that prompted you to do what you do now. What has happened to Carolyn? Yeah. Back then.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Sure, yeah. Yeah, it's been a journey of things happening to me and my experience encountering mental health and doctors and psychiatrists and the mental health system along the way. So for me, I've been experiencing challenges with mental health since I was about 10. Wow, that's so young. Yeah, very, very young. And that had that journey has been very fragmented along the way. So things that I've been experiencing and the symptoms that I were experiencing over a period of 20 years wasn't all put together or connected. And as a result of that, that what that's meant is, gosh, uh it's meant misdiagnosis, over-medicated, undermedicated, uh, not being able to get the right help or even know what the right help is to get. So over a period of years of having multiple admissions into into hospital, into sorry, into the mental health facilities. I actually ended up in 2023 having a psychotic episode. And that wasn't something that was captured in any of my diagnosis, not psychoses. And I think that is because I have had so many, I've seen so many different psychiatrists over the years without everything being put together properly. So my journey has ultimately led me to one, it's been a very isolating journey. Isolating, I've really I've had to research and Google contradictions of medications. I've been up on 11 or 13 different medications at a time, each one interacting with the other. I've been completely zombied, I've been laid out for 12 months, 15 months, 18 months. So it's it's been quite catastrophic for me. It's not like that for everyone, and everyone's experience will be different. But one thing did remain constant and common, and that was how I was being treated. As in not treated medically, although that is part of the issue, but how I was being treated by practitioners, by clinicians, and then there is a a subset to that, and that is I would just call that society, and what society's or communities understanding is of mental health, and that stigma is still so entrenched, and even more so if you're a female, and that has been my experience, and that is ultimately what has led me to. I mean, I I have faced death so many times, it's it's crazy, but in an in an effort to save myself, which I've always wanted, and and continue to, and and I will continue to advocate for myself. And in an effort to do that, I boy oh boy, did I dig deep to understand and learn, give myself more resilience where I could. I mean, there are situations where you can't you just can't apply resilience, it's not possible. But ultimately, it just led to a massive accumulation of personal development, education, learning, researching, so much researching, and then actually applying the things that I have learnt, as well as having to wean myself off medication with no assistance. And this isn't just my story, this is thousands of women's story. This is this is not just me. This happens all the time, and not everybody wins that battle, yeah, not everybody wins it. So I believe that if we continue to raise awareness, particularly through the lived experience, I I absolutely believe that that we can save lives, and that's why I want to do, and that is why I do what I do, because it's it's a terrible place to be, and we don't have to be in this place, we do not.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

I'm just blown away by, and I know you said it doesn't just take resilience, but it is resilience and your ability to pull yourself out of the darkest places and sit here and looking beautiful and glowing, and I can just see that you know what you've come through and how horrific that might have been, and not giving up and not going, oh well, this is it, my life is over. But actually doing something about it, and I think that's important as well. And now the next step in your chapter is wanting to help more people, which is again just fascinating to me because I adore people like you. I absolutely know when people say, Oh, who's your idol? I'm like, I don't have an idol, I have a collection of humans that I've come across in my life where I look at them and I go, it would have been so much easier to give up. It would have been so much easier to throw in the towel and go, I'm done with this. And unfortunately, it does happen, and it happens way too much, way too often, and it shouldn't. And if we can save just even one life, that's one life more. Absolutely. Because every life matters, absolutely, like we come to this earth with a purpose. Yes, we all carry a soul, we've got a beating heart, and I think it's worth fighting for. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

I couldn't, oh, 100%, and it is worth fighting for. And I mean, male or female, man, woman, child, race, greed, whatever. I mean, uh, a life is a life and it and it is very precious. And I yeah, I I really feel the just feel the value of life has changed a bit and in terms of I don't know, maybe maybe I'm saying that because of my own experiences and just how flippant I feel people's attitudes can be around some lives, and it's like, gosh, you know, we really need to show we need to take a stand for that. We need to take a stand for that. Actually, it's not okay.

Hospitalisations And Post-COVID Pressure

SPEAKER_00 14:34

87,000 women access mental health services in 23 and 24. That's a huge number of people accessing. Oh, sorry, no, that's 87,000 that were hospitalized. That 87,000 were hospitalized through through mental health and or addiction services in 2023, 2024. And that that's that's astounding.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

And I think that spiked after COVID as well. I remember reading some data, absolutely like doubled and tripled after COVID because, well, during COVID and after, because people were really suffering. Yeah, really suffering.

The TAM Systemic Lens Approach

SPEAKER_02 15:11

So, Carolyn, tell me more about your current program that you've developed.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

So it's called I it's not it's not a program as such. It's it's okay. It's it is simply a a platform that I've created with just simply a place where people can contact me. It's it's TAM Systemic Lens, which is just simply so TAM's my last name, and it's just me looking mental health through my own perspective as an individual, coupled with my professional experiences that I've had. So the service that I'm offering is purely is it's really simple. It's just raising awareness and educating communities, individuals, professionals to better understand what mental health looks like for a person living it. And a a really good example of why that is so important. There's a case going on at the moment called the it's the Lindsay Clancy trial. Yes, I've seen that one. That's horrific. And and that is unfortunately our worst case scenario. So that is a worst case scenario. That is a a a woman who went to 17 different psychiatrists in the space of four months. She was so heavily medicated. The thing is, is that the symptoms were there and it was missed where it it really should not have been missed. It shouldn't have been. And uh the crux of that trial is the mental health services and assessments that uh Lindsay Clancy had accessed and and that the assessments that she was subjected to and how she was uh subjected to them. For example, she had 12 Zoom meetings with a psychiatrist. There were 12 Zoom meetings. So coming back to raising the education and awareness this this woman had uh desperately vocalized, and this is a woman who had desperately vocalized, so she was making it very clear and it still got missed. Now there are things, signs and symptoms that we're missing all day, every day in society that I that pe people just aren't aware of. And it's not just people, it's it's clinicians, it's it's doctors, it's it's prenatal workers, it's social workers, it's psychiatrists. So what the service that I'm offering is that lived experience in a articulated format that gives clear understanding using common language, especially there. That's important, especially there, using just common everyday language that helps people understand what it looks like. There's there's a lack of understanding of what it looks like, and it's not what people imagine.

What Psychosis Can Look Like

SPEAKER_00 18:41

So I mean, if I said to you like a person had gone has gone mad, what do you've lost the plot or they've become mentally unwell, what is the image that comes up in your head?

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Interesting question. When you say mad, it's yeah, someone that doesn't make sense on what they're saying, they're living in a different reality, I guess. Interesting, yeah. To someone else. Yeah. So your reality of what's true and normal is completely different to their reality of true and normal.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

That is so thank you. Thank you for your bravery too, because there's no right or wrong answer. It's just merely a demonstration of what we imagine something could look like. Would you be surprised if I said to you that a person can be in the midst of what's called psychoses? So they're not in reality, but they could actually have a level-headed conversation with you, make dinner, and then go and do something very tragic.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Tragic, yeah. Well, that's what happened to you know a few celebrities that we know. Robin Williams. Yeah, uh. Is it what's his name? Robin. Yep, yeah, it's Robin Williams. I always question my judgment on names. Um and he was the comedian, right? Everyone loved him. And yeah, that was a real surprise for a lot of people, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. So it's sad because when you s when you asked me that question, my memory took me down my memory lane of knowing someone that went through mental health and seeing him, who was a highly educated man, and all it took really is one time he was at a party, took some drugs, never took drugs before, never drank, never took drugs. And someone at the party said, You know, you want to try this, and and he did it, and he was uh, you know, in his twenties, and that sent him, that activated the something in his brain that only happens to like one out of I don't know, hundred thousand people. Yeah. And that activated that psychosis for him. So he started, you know, he was very uh what was the word? Paranoid. He was paranoid. He was saying, you know, there's someone out there to get him, there was police out there, there's this, this, this. He would make up all sorts of crazy stories, but then he'll like snap out of it, you'll sit at the dinner with him and he'll be fine. And then all of a sudden he will spiral out again. And it took years for him and his parents to bring him back to normal life again. Yeah, and he had such an amazing bright future ahead of him, you know, and he had to take years step back just because someone gave him the struggle at a party. And he was on antidepressants and he was on a cocktail of things. So I watched that on front of my eyes. He was my um ex-boyfriend's brother, so and I was with that family, I was quite close with them. So I watched that for years of how he unfolded. But the highlight for me was he got married, he met a wonderful woman, they got married, and she understood completely what he was going through. And she knows he needs to take those drugs every day now for the rest of his life. Because if he doesn't take those drugs, it flips him. And and watching him being His normal back self again was probably one of the greatest joys when I was photographing his wedding. And you know, so when you asked me that question, I immediately had that picture of him when he was wearing a flashlight that you wear to, you know, cycling, and he was wearing it at like nine o'clock in the morning for breakfast, and he was paranoid standing at the window, going, Oh my god, they're looking at me, you know, they're out there. And and you needed to play along with him because if you didn't, then he would completely get mad at you. Right. So we had we had to come around him and you know, cover him in that love and understanding and making sure that he was safe. Wow, how amazing that he had people around him who And that's what exactly what I was thinking that he was lucky that he had that support system around him. But what about all of those people that don't?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

And there's so many that's so many. I know it's it's yeah, yeah, that it's quite sad that that is just such a common experience for many people. And

Support Systems And Social Inequality

SPEAKER_00 23:25

I think in my ex in my own experience and in my experience as a social worker, I observe that the support systems do decrease depending on the socioeconomic group. I've because if if people are in a lower socioeconomic group, there just tends to be more family fragmentation. There tends to be more trauma, particularly if someone's um of Maori or Pacific Island ethnicity, which is a whole nother I mean that's a whole nother conversation in itself in terms of who is being who is more affected by by mental health and I mean postnatally for um Mori woman it's 16.5%, I think it is, 16.5% of Maori women who are postnatal are sorry, either become depressed during pregnancy or after pregnancy as opposed to 5.7% of non-Māori. Wow. Huge. Such a big difference, big difference. So again, just like coming back to that that lived experience from just from what I've seen, from what I've seen and what I've been through and what I've observed the I feel that that what is really missing out there is hearing people like myself just hearing us. And I I think people would be quite surprised as to what it's actually what it's actually like and what's actually going on.

Hidden Pain In Plain Sight

SPEAKER_00 25:28

It's it's just not it's not as in what's going on inside our minds, our thoughts, our bodies, what what we're trying to navigate is very challenging. Very challenging. But because you can't see it, how do you know anything's wrong? Yeah. It's not like a broken arm. You just can't say, here's my broken brain. Look at it. It's you we just don't have that tangible thing to go, oh yeah, look at that. I can see that. Oh yes, I need to put a cast around that. It's it's so so tricky.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Maybe we should just develop a bandana that people could wear on their hats and that says I love it. So, you know, when they're out and about, people know that you know they've there's something going on.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

I could so see a world like that. I really could. Like, I mean, and this is what I mean. Like, sometimes the solutions are really simple. It's not I I mean, it is complicated, but it's not complicated.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

It's just such yeah, just I'll tell you another story I've recently heard. It was, I think it was at the recent conference, and this woman said, you know, she was in a supermarket line, and there was this lady that was packing people's bags, and she looked very grumpy, and she'd she looked like actually, yeah, it was in a on my other episode with Melanie, she was telling us that story. And she knew she met this woman at a funeral recently where her son's best friend passed away. And that was probably due to you know, mental health and other things. And so she knew that this woman was at that funeral. And as she approached her, she said, Hey, well, I think the woman recognized Melanie and she said, Hey, you know, I remember you from the funeral, da-da-da. And she said, Yeah, are you okay? You know, what's happening in your world, sort of thing. And she said, Well, my son just died, you know. So from the outset, if she didn't know Melanie, if there was no connection, she wouldn't have shared that. And to anyone, any passers-by, she would have looked like a grumpy old person that's just you know not happy being here. Yeah, but in fact, she was going through a massive family trauma. And she just lost her son, and she was back at work trying to cope with life, trying to cope with everything. And I think, you know, going back to that original point that we were discussing, that sometimes you just have no idea what's going on in people's lives. No, and it's we're so easy to jump to a conclusion that this person is either grumpy or has great life going on or whatever without understanding and connecting human to human. I think we forgot what it's like to be human, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Gosh, I so feel feel you on this, and it was it's part of the reason that I made sure that I was in person today. Thank you. Yeah, I really for driving all the way. Oh, it was a pleasure, you know, absolutely. But just exactly for that reason, because it would be it would just be such a different feel if this was occurring online. And you just you even coming back to the when you were asking about technology and social media, you just you can't it's just a different world, isn't it? It's such a different world, but it's not a real world. It's not a real world. We're not it's not we've we're not we connect very differently online versus in person. And if we don't stop and ask, if we don't or if we don't just say hi, or I don't know, stop and pat the walker's dog, or it's those little just those little things where community and conversations start and spark up. But with technology, we're just so much more isolated behind our screens that the conversations they're just so different. They're so different.

Hope, Curiosity And Plain Language

SPEAKER_00 29:40

So with your work, Carolyn.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yes, what are you most excited about? Oh gosh. Because it's not an easy work that you've sort of paved yourself for. No. So that's why I'm turning a positivity lens on it.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

I love it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

What are you excited about?

SPEAKER_00 30:02

I'm excited about being asked that question. Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

I can just see you beaming with smiles.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

I think for me, I'm excited about being able to start to be in a position now where I've come through the worst of it that I'm aware of at this point. I mean, you know, I don't know. You don't know when it's going to hit you again, it's or what might trigger it or set it off, or what events might happen. But what I do know is that I have garnered more than my fair share of experience and education and professional practice to be able to bring forward some reality. I'm just I'm excited to teach. I'm excited to share. I want to see people tune in and listen to what's really going on. That's what excites me. I want to, I want conversations to be had with more with curiosity and less judgment. I'm like, I'm I'm excited for that. And I do believe that that is easily achievable in today's day and age, but just because of where we are, especially with our younger generation, oh, I just they're amazing. They're so clued up, they're so they know so much more than we ever could have imagined. And maybe that's partly attributed to social media. But just also having their their take on things, you know, there's things that they that they're gonna hear through me talking that my generation back then, if that makes sense, we just wouldn't have received information the same way. These guys are so open. But I it's such a I mean, I'm truly just excited about so much. Yeah, but I honestly the the thing that I'm most excited about is just is raising the awareness and you know what really lights me up is having someone knowing that someone is struggling I mean that clearly doesn't light me up, but I mean knowing that they're struggling and they're believing that there's and understandably that there's no way out and they just don't understand what's going on for them. And then I come along and I say, hey, I've got some language for you that you can understand because I've stripped back all the clinical stuff and just put it into really easy, everyday laypersons terms and and language, and you and I've seen it already anyway. I've just see people literally light up with hope, real hope, not sitting in front of a psychiatrist and a psychiatrist saying to you, Well, I'm gonna give you four different pills, and I'm not anti-medication, I take medication too. But not just throwing it at me and going, well, you know, we've seen really good results on this. It's just there's really not much hope in that.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

I agree, I agree. I think the world needs more of people like you that can connect with them on their level, and as you said, you know, provide them as that language because I feel like we're all part of if okay, if we look at each other as a book, right? Someone might be just in the beginning of the book, you might be in the middle of that book or towards the end. You already know what sort of happened in that book and how did you get to this point? The other person has no idea, and they're terrified as they sort of turning the pages and they're going, Oh my god, I have no idea what it is. I don't have any idea what this word means. And then you come along out of your mid book chapter. I really want to, I really want to get an AI visual on this. And then you like run across to this person in the beginning of the book and going, Well, I'll give you a better language. How about we stop reading Latin and start reading English?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Right?

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

And I think, and that's you know, similar to my career, to what I do, like them, you know, first-time buyers absolutely love them and adore them, but a lot of them have no idea, right? They don't know any budgeting skills, or they don't know what they don't know. So you've got to teach them all those things. And I think it's similar with you, where you already lived a bit of experience and you know that. And it's not like you know everything, nobody does. I don't know everything either, but we just know a little bit more than the person starting that journey, and that's all that matters.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

That's it, isn't it? Oh, that was so beautifully said. That is that's just the simplicity of it. Yeah, we just know a little bit more than where this person is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

And if you can just hold a hand and show them the way that they're not alone, you know, then because they're standing there looking at this crazy forest and you know it's pitch black and they have no idea where they're going, and you've got a bit of a torch because they they haven't discovered that toolbox yet of torches and other things, but you have, and you can take them to the campfire and make them feel warm and drink some hot chocolate and marshmallows. Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Yeah, that's exactly it, you know, or what you however that looks for you there.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

So do you need a marketing person? I can go around with you. I love it. But I wholeheartedly believe that you know, the stigma is still there. Look, my country is probably 50 years behind New Zealand in terms of understanding what depression is, understanding the mental health. You know, back in my own country of origin where I'm from, there's even a saying, we don't get depression. What is depression? You know, depression doesn't exist. Women are really left suffering with the prenatal, postnatal, you know, all of those depressions. And they have to suffer alone. And there's also some horrific cases that happen, especially in remote villages, where women get their children in suicide by you know diving into rivers or you know, killing them and things like that. And it's and it's horrible because nobody listens to them at all. So I think even though New Zealand seems like it's behind, it's still far ahead than most of the other countries out there.

Culture, Stigma And Men’s Silence

SPEAKER_02 36:35

But the more awareness we can raise, yeah, the better it is for the whole society.

unknown 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

So thank you for doing that. Oh, I was just about to thank you for just like bringing that piece of information to the table as well, in terms of where we where New Zealand may be sitting in comparison to other places. And the and yeah, that there are places, as you've just described, where not women aren't even being heard at all. What's depression you were saying? Gosh, I can't.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

That's really um and men, I mean men suffer a lot in silence as well, because you know, especially the culture that I'm from, man's supposed to be strong and a provider, and you know, yeah, and they've got a role to play. So they cannot show weaknesses, they cannot seek therapy, they cannot seek any help because that's considered to be weak. So therefore, you're not a man. Your identity is strongly attached to how you feel mentally.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Yeah, very much. Hey, so it's like that in with in your culture as well. And the suicide for men?

SPEAKER_02 37:48

I wouldn't know the exact statistics. We can have a look. Um, but I would I would say it's also, you know, out there, especially in the remote villages. I think there's just so much that happens in the remote villages that people don't know, but also the whole cultural aspect of I don't want to let my family down. And you know, I don't want to be seen as a weak person. Yeah. And then they just go and disappear somewhere. So it does happen. It does. So I think whatever you're doing, keep doing it. Thank you. You're on the right. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Oh, you're a breath of fresh air. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

I think there's so much we can talk

Money As Power And Control

SPEAKER_02 38:26

about. One of the things that you also mentioned in the beginning was around, you know, the childhood traumas and the experience and stuff like that. One of the things I interview people a lot about is money and the money story. Let's dive into that a little bit. We're just gonna do a little UE here. Okay, go. Money story. I want to know what's your money story and what's your money relationship right now. How do you view money and what were you learned growing up?

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Thank you for asking the question. My money story, and what did I learn? I learned growing up that money was something that a man had. Wow. And it was it wield a lot of power. A lot of power. So money for me was almost intimidating.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Was it because you as a woman, as a girl, as a female, shouldn't be dealing with something that's powerful, that's man for man?

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Yeah, I yeah, I definitely grew up in a sexist misogynistic setting at times because I was in and out of foster care. But when I was I was mostly raised by my father, but when I was being raised by my father, he he earned really good money. But I observed frequently the money being used as a means to manipulate situations. And for me to be given money or have money came at a cost. So like what? Ownership. Ownership over me. So I've given you this, now you owe me. You can't leave me. You have to do this for me, you must look after me. Yeah, so it was a real power struggle. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

And then when you grew up and you could make your own money, how did that feel?

SPEAKER_00 40:49

I'm not sure that I gave it much thought because coming into adulthood, I was really debilitated with mental health issues. So when I was making money, like it did feel good. I do recall feeling good, and there were times where I was earning quite good money, even as a social worker, there were times where I was earning quite good money. And that's yeah, that's in a more senior position, but not senior, senior, but just a yeah. It felt good and I would spend and I still spend as fast as it comes in. I cannot help myself. I'm terrible.

unknown 41:35

I am terrible.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

So my relationship with money is if I want something, I will absolutely find a way to get it. So I won't let it be a barrier. If I really want something, I will get it, but I can't save.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

But see, that's also could be part of your childhood trauma with money, because having a lot of money means you're becoming powerful beyond your ability to hold on to it.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Yes. Ah okay, got you. So if you suddenly have quite a lot of money, you're going, I will I was not meant to have this much money. Only men can have this much money. Yes. This is your, you know, like dip, dip, dip, dip in. Yeah. That could be aversion of how I would interpret it with my counseling hat on. I love this. Thank you. Thank you. So this is where you know you've got to work on that going, hey, why am I spending all my money? Why am I not allowing myself to grow? Something for me that man has no control over it.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

I think you just like woke something up there in me because I I my relationship with money is. It's a feeling of I have to do so much more to get the same amount of money. And I feel quite resentful about that.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Yeah. So there's a lot to unpack there. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but sign you up for my next session. Yes, please. This is something I've been passionate about because I feel it's strongly interconnected to how we were raised as children with money. And if your father had that power over you, and you know, and you shifted across foster homes and this and that, and the money was connected strongly to that, it's a man tool, man allowed to have it. Who am I to have it? I'm not big enough, I'm not strong enough, I'm not smart enough. So when money comes into my Possession, I'll look at money and I go, You don't belong to me. Let me quickly get rid of you by buying something by not keeping you, by not growing with you. Because I'm not good enough.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's quite an uncomfortable feeling.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

It is, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

And the more people I talk to, the more I see different things that happen to people. There's a lot of people I interviewed that came from very poor households or broke households or families that did really well, you know, and it's amazing. Doesn't matter what happened in that household, whatever narrative people have in their head strongly linked to the money that then they will make in the future.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

That would yeah, it would make sense. It makes sense what you're saying. Yeah. Especially in terms of like, I'm just thinking about childhood development and brain development, especially in the first zero to eight years and what we're learning and the values that we take on and messaging and stuff like that. That we really, yeah, we carry, do carry it on.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

So usually as grown-ups, we'll grow up and we'll go to therapy and we'll talk about our feelings, our parents, our whatever, but we never talk about the money. So that side always gets stuck at that age of eight or ten. Oh, really? So you will develop everything else and try to raise that inner child through your emotions and affirmations and whatever. But if you haven't worked on your financial side of it, it sort of gets a little bit frozen in time. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Yeah. Uh yeah, that's a really good description too, the frozen in time, because it is like trying to raise that child or like bring that child forward, isn't it? You're still working with from that point in time. Yeah. Fascinating. I've never thank you, because I've not I have explored it, but not quite like that.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

And I hope it resonates with our listeners because I find that we all come from some sort of money story. And I think like you, I'm passionate about the more stories we share, the more people will go, ah, that's what's going on with me. Yeah. I'm not broken, I'm not broke. No, I'm not, you know, big spender or I can't save. Because there are people that are amazing at saving. But that's because, you know, that cup was filled by the parents or by whatever happened in their life, or maybe they worked on it. So they managed to save because they know how. But if you don't know how, if you've never learned it and if you never worked on it, you just wouldn't.

Why Siblings Handle Money Differently

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Tell me, I have a question. So, like, so my sister, we grew up in the same household, and I or households, and I would say, if anything, she she shielded me a lot from a lot of things. So she really caught the brunt of a a lot of violence and neglect. And she is amazing with money. And I'm like, how do you where's the gene?

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Like why didn't I get it? But again, that could have been the result that you know she suffered so much to the point where because you were shielded, yes, you suffered, but she might have suffered to the point where she went, I don't want a life like this. I'm gonna go and go into protective mode of whatever comes my way, yeah, I'm gonna hold on to it. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's her mode, right? She shielded you, she's shielding the money, she's shielding whatever comes her way.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

That could be, I mean, I don't know her. I'm just making an assumption.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Well, no, it's interesting then.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

But that could be the way I would see it. That she's gone through something so traumatic in her life that she went, I don't want to be living in a way like this. I want to be full. I want to buy food. I don't want to be hungry. I want to be able to have a roof over my head or whatever was going on for her in her head.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Yeah, that makes that makes sense to me now that you I've never, ever even thought of it like that.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

So if I actually get her in this chair and have that conversation with her about her money story, I wouldn't be surprised if she says things like that.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

That's really that's some pretty amazing work you're doing there too. That's thank you. Yeah, absolutely. I especially money. I mean, my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Because people don't like talking about money. It's embarrassing, it's confronting, it's uncomfortable, especially if you don't have that good relationship with money. You know, it feels a bit yuck. It's like, oh, I don't want to talk about that. That's like duty underwear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

And it is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 48:53

But the more you talk about it, the more you get comfortable with that, then you're able to face your laundry, take it to the washing machine, and wash it.

unknown 49:00

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

I'm full of analogies.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

That's a brilliant analogy. I love

Where To Find Caroline

SPEAKER_00 49:06

it.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

Carolyn, thank you so much. We're gonna wrap it up because you know we've been talking for almost an hour. Gosh, have we? How incredible. And you were so nervous in the beginning. I was, I really was. It did amazing. And what I'm gonna give you now is I'm gonna give you two minutes of fame. So tell how people can find you. We'll put it in our podcast notes as well, but just voice it out there. Who do you want to help and how can they reach out to you? Sure. Oh, thanks for the two minutes of fame.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

I don't need fame. Um, I don't want fame.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

Don't worry, this episode is not really that. I mean, the podcast is not that famous yet.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Best way to get hold of me is probably my website, I would imagine, or LinkedIn. So my website, oh, please do forgive me on this because everything's brand new. The website is Tam T A M M Systemic Lens. But it's built through base 44. So I think it's TAM SystemicLens dot base 44.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

I will get back to you on that. We'll put it in our thank you. No, don't worry about it. But who do you want to help? Uh just a quick summary.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Who is your uh audience? Uh it's it's it's all three that I mentioned before. It's the families, it's the communities, and it's the practitioners. The professionals. Love it. Yeah. Like they it's I can't leave any one of them out because it's all connected. Love it.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

So that's and you can see people online or do you only see them in Wellington? What where do you see people?

SPEAKER_00 50:46

I have a preference to see people in person. That that really is my preference. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't do a Skype or Zoom meeting. Skype. I know, I can't believe I can't. Carolyn, please leave me alone. I'm Skype.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

I'm gonna give you grief for this.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

It's kind of like saying a horse and carriage, isn't it? A horse and wagon. Oh my gosh, Skype. No, not Skype people, Zoom. So I can do initial meetings on Zoom. Okay, yeah. I can I can certainly do that. But if I was seeing someone to talk to them about mental health, I mean if I was meeting with someone to talk to them about mental health, I I would prefer to do that in person. Right. Brilliant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Thank you so much. Thank you for coming along. And uh I would love to have you back and maybe your sister. I don't know. We'll figure it out. But and I think you and I have a lot of work in front of us, and I think it would be really cool to do something together in terms of you know money and mental health. And oh, that would be that well being.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Yeah, that's a that's a juicy one, that one, isn't it? It's a very real thing. It is thank you so much, Carolyn. Thank you, thank you.