Mindset Beats Maths With Money

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Eighty percent of how we manage money is mindset. Only twenty percent is the actual numbers. That's the core idea behind today's guest work. And once you hear it, you'll never think about your savings the same way. Rachel Davis, co-founder of High Money and author of the co-author of the book Money, Money, Money. Welcome. Hello, Rachel.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Thank you so much, Sebasino. It's lovely to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

No problem. Lovely having you. Rachel, I'm curious. I want to know everything about where you started from. How did you end up in this position today? So let's rewind back. Who is Rachel?

SPEAKER_00 0:48

So I worked in the arts for a long time in the film business. And then I retrained as a therapist. And I'd come back from overseas. I'd been traveling through America and I was living in California and then in Hawaii for a long time. And my mum was sick, and I came home to look after her. And I was 49, 48 or 49, I didn't even have a Kiwi Saver, which is obviously shocking to me now. I'm 55. And and I was working with Angela Meyer at her agency, Double Denim, and we're working on a campaign for Super Super in Australia about superannuation. And she said, Do you know that women are more likely, about a third more likely to retire into poverty than men? And that stat just struck me through the heart. I was like, oh, that's I'm on track for that. You know, like this is a this is a big deal. I need to sort this out. And I think I'd sort of, we did some research for the book and we found that 30% of New Zealand men and women, all genders, there they don't have a financial plan, or their financial plan is is winning lotto or winning some kind of prize. And I think that's where I was, you know, and so Angie and I sort of sat down and tried to work out how to sort out our financial lives. And for me, it wasn't budgeting and spreadsheets. Like I'd worked in the arts, I'm already a brilliant budgeter and you know, great, great at all that sort

Rachel’s Money Wake Up Call

SPEAKER_00 2:20

of stuff. And I sort of found that kind of school teachery kind of budgety thing. I didn't really like it very much. It didn't really work for me. And anyway, we're sort of a bit stuck there with those sort of those kind of tools. And I said to Ange one time, like, let's just do therapy on it, you know, because I'm a therapist. And so in therapy, there's an exercise where you get a cushion or something and you talk to it as if it's whatever you're working on. It could be your mum, or it could be chocolate, or in this case, I said, let's talk to some something as if it's money. I'll I'll pretend to be money, Ange, and you talk to me as if I am. And so we had this conversation, and Ange talked to money, and it was absolutely mind-blowing. And then we swapped, I was like, Ange, I've got to do this myself. Like, you pretend to be money. And when I talked to Ange as if she was money, I realized that I would never treat a person the way I was treating money. Like I was binging it, I come home, I felt like it was really hard going looking after my dying mother, and then I was just like, Yeah, treats, treats, treats, treats, treats. I get to have whatever I want because it's really hard. And so I was just blowing all this money, and then I felt shame about it, so I wouldn't look at my bank account because if I don't look, then I won't have to stop doing it. And so I'd sort of like if money was a friend, I would like sort of use it and then I'd ice it for ages, I'd ignore it, I was ghosting it, and then I so I had this really crazy thing I was doing, and in this short conversation with Ange pretend to be money, all of that sort of came to the surface. And I realized that I didn't want to do it anymore. Like I wanted to treat money with a bit more respect, and I wanted money to show up for me and treat me with respect. Like I wanted a more grown-up relationship, and I was willing to forego treats for things that were really meaningful, like a really great emergency cushion or a deposit for a house, or like the big stuff. I was ready for the big stuff, and all of that happened in three minutes with this one therapy exercise. And so we were like, this is where it's at. This is interesting. It's psychology, you know, it's how and in the you know, after that we made a course called High Money, and I've talked to so many women about how they feel about money, and they're like, I love it and I hate it, I don't trust it, but I want it. Or, you know, other people do that for me. My dad just does it, or all these different really complicated things that everyone's a bit different, but I don't think money is simple, whether you've got lots of it or you want more of it. I think the only thing, you know, that we always say at the beginning of our high money work is you can't budget your way out of poverty. Like if you don't have enough money that you're not eating and you're not safe, then mindset doesn't make any difference. You just need resources and support. But if you've got a little bit of choice and a little bit of something to play with, then mindset is useful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

That's fascinating, Rachel. You know, because I unbeknown to me about you, your stuff, and your courses and things like that. I was sitting here, you know, a couple of years ago and I was looking at my whiteboard and I kept going, money therapy, money therapy. People need money therapy because I've realized that I was doing a lot of that with my clients, the mindset, the therapy side of it, that it's not just black and white. It's not, as you say, whether you have the money, whether you don't have the money, whether you've got the kiwi saver, or what's the balance of your kiwi saver? Money affects us all different. We all have a money story, yeah, and behind that we also have money personalities.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

And I was and I was just sitting there one day and it was hitting me like there are money personalities, people need money therapy. Like, how can I make it happen? And it was just one of my thoughts that I sort of left it there. And I'm like, eventually I'll come back to it when I have time. Yeah, but it was always brewing in the back of my mind. But when I came across you and your stuff, I was like, Oh my god, there's actually a woman that's doing it, yay! I was so excited because it's so, so needed. And as you say, you know, there's a lot of shame attached to the money. We don't want to face it, we don't want to feel uncomfortable, and our brain naturally will shut down the pain points.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah, absolutely. We do sometimes in high money, you know, the first exercise is that women go into breakout rooms with each other, one, you know, two people, and you know, you introduce yourself and you say, What's your relationship with money right now? What's your money story? And when the women come back from that five-minute exercise, they've got like shining eyes, and they're like, Oh my god, I thought it was just me. I thought everyone had it sorted apart from me, and this kind of little bubble of like silence, thinking that everybody else understands it and has got it together. And there's such a relief in just hearing other people's stories and being like, Oh, okay. It's just a big, complicated, messy part of life, like every other part of life. And maybe I've got a little bit of it sorted, and not some of that sorted, and that lady feels like this, and that one feels like this, and there's just such a relief, I think, for people in that, and especially for women, you know that or women are mostly the people I've been working with on this. I guess that's another aspect of our yeah, you go.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Do you think the problem is in today's society

The Three Minute Money Therapy Exercise

SPEAKER_01 7:50

is the whole social media that people look at people's stories, Instagram, you know, everyone looks so nicely put together. People don't really share the actual things that are going on behind the scenes, and then therefore it gives the false sense that everyone else got it together, but you don't.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. I think you know, because I'm old enough to be before social media, and I think it was there too, that sense of you know, your friends are fashionable and they're funny and they're perfect, and it feels like I mean, maybe that is what it feels like to be a human being, that sense like everybody's got it sorted apart from me, and I'm just trying to figure it out. But I think social media makes it a lot worse, and it's about presenting quite a perfect image, or nobody's really being honest or being vulnerable. It's sort of about selling things and selling your brand and being successful or looking successful, and all of that kind of I think makes people feel lonelier and more flawed than they are, you know. We're all just bumbling along in our own ways, I would guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Because what blew me away as well, the recent research data, as you say, you know, women tend to retire with way less than men, a lot of that down to separations. We normally would go through separations at the age of 30s and then 50s again. Um, and then you know, we're usually the ones that stay home, look after the kids, or become the caregivers for our parents. We're the sandwich caregivers. And and we do get affected. And usually, if we do go back to work, we do go part-time, so our key receivers don't have the same chance at growing as the man. And a lot of women, when they walk away from marriages, they tend to just go, I don't want anything, I just want to be done with, and they don't fight for what's right.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

And I think the legal system supports the person with the most money because if you can drag that fight out, you can tire your opponent if they haven't got deep pockets so often, and the you know, one partner will be exhausted and looking after the kids, and then it goes on for years and there's a huge legal bill, and they're like, I don't care, just let this be over. Like it's so often women will lose huge amounts of money in those processes, and and because they because women are paid a little bit less and then we're out of the workforce more often, or and our kiwi savers and women aren't at least when I was young, we weren't socialized to be investing in the same way. Like women are traditionally taught to save more than invest, so there's that it feels like death by a thousand cuts over a woman's life of all these little things, and maybe you step out to have children, and then when you go back, you don't go back at the level that yeah, so you suddenly bit junior and you're not earning so much. And there's also the pink tax, which I find really interesting, and that pink tax is like sometimes women's products are a little bit more expensive than men, like a woman's haircut.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Yes, I was reading about that the other day as well, about how the raises, the same razors, will cost more 15% more often, or even more than men.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah, and it's like all over the like there are things that you can't avoid too. Like, are you gonna go and have a men's haircut and save 50 bucks? Probably not, or a hundred bucks. But also, women have all sort of like female health stuff, which is really expensive. They did an is some research in America and they added up the cost of the pink tax over a lifetime, like they estimated it, and it was about 188 US. So that's like a quarter of a million dollars in New Zealand money that women is it's a lot of money. Like imagine if at retirement every woman got a quarter of a million dollars just to pop on her mortgage, like it's a game-changing amount of money, and that's the pink tax, just the pink tax, not getting paid less, not the less smaller kiwi saver, or the impact of separations and caregiving and yeah, so absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Um, a lot of the listeners that listen to the show are usually like first-time buyers trying to save for the deposit, or people that are trying to expand their portfolio. What sort of tips would you have for them when it comes to money psychology?

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Well, I guess uh I would advise just slowing down and looking very gently, like shamefree at how you feel about money, or if money was a person, what's it like between you and them, or what's your money story? And often that will reveal some money beliefs that are sitting in there, running little program under the surface. And just check them and make sure they're true, because sometimes people will have a belief like my mother believed that you have to work really, really hard for money. That's the only way, you know, and therefore you've got to be working 14 hours a day, slaving it to make money, which I don't really think is true because there are lots of different ways to make money, like from investments, from investment portfolios, or what all sorts of things. So I would advise that people just slow down and look and then find any beliefs and just test them. Do you really believe that right now? Is that really true? Like, what's another one? Once a woman said, I just realized I've always believed someone's gonna come and save me, but no one's come. I'm 53, I'm just gonna save myself. So ever since she watched that Disney princess movie or whatever, she's thought quietly just been waiting and not taking action. And so it's those beliefs that are out of date that can stop us from behaving or doing things in our best interest. They like kind of sabotage us, but we don't know. And we can just find them and lovingly, gently check them. And if they're not in alignment, we can just update them because you know you we're a different, I'm a different person now than my money beliefs when I was 20 or what my parents' beliefs were, and so just kind of updating your software in a way.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah, because I was about to say we are evolving humans, right? Yeah, we constantly evolve, and it's our uh human way to to continuously find ways how we can improve. Now, in your book, you talk about how 80% is mindset and 20% is mechanics. Can you just break it down a little bit further just to understand on a higher level what does it mean?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Well, that's actually a sort of a therapy

Shame And The Hidden Money Story

SPEAKER_00 14:30

staple of and it's true for everything. Most of everything is how you think and feel about it, and then maybe 20 or 30% is the logical stuff, the fact stuff, and you can see it quite clearly with food. Like people don't most people don't eat by calculating the calories and their and you know, getting the exact correct nutritional requirements. Like they eat a piece of cake because they feel like they want to cuddle, or you know, because that's what their mum used to make them. So there's actually most of it is emotional, and it's the same with everything, and it's definitely the same with money. And if we if it wasn't true, you know, we would all just behave logically and make logical choices for ourselves, but it just doesn't work like that. I think people, even if they're not aware of it, are always making choices based on feelings or things they believe or things they think are right or what they value. And so it's very fruitful to explore that kind of territory, much more fruitful than just the logic and facts, even though that stuff's great.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Do I make it more clear or I don't know, maybe I made it more confusing? I guess people really need to read your book now. So in New Zealand, this book can be found in any bookshelves, uh book bookshops and stuff. But I also thought you had like a little tour in Australia.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Did you go to Australia? Yes. Yeah, we went and did a uh launch in Melbourne at Readings Bookshop, which is a really famous, really wonderful bookshop in Carlton. So, and the book is written for New Zealand and Australian audiences, and we did some research for the book and we we surveyed like a thousand Australian New Zealand men and women, all genders, and talked about the socio-cultural determinants of wealth and was really interesting. And that's all in the book, also. What is wealth, Rachel? For me, wealth is like potential, you know. I guess you know you can buy a house, but if you haven't got the money to do the roof or pay the mortgage, you're in trouble. So wealth is like potential energy. You can spend it and do things with it if you choose to. For me, the difference between wealth and riches is riches is the expression of wealth. It's like, I'll just buy a whole lot of stuff, I look rich. Wealth is like being able to do that if you choose to. You don't necessarily have to, but you can. What's it for you?

SPEAKER_01 16:58

It's interesting you say that because I grew up in a country where you know we went through war, we didn't have much money, things like that. And I didn't come from a rich family or anything like that. My family was quite academic. So for me growing up, I was explained wealth is your knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

So you're rich when you know things. And for me, it was always instilled that if you know things, if you become an expert in something, then you know you can build the future you want.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah, how beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

So that was really cool when I came to New Zealand. Didn't really have much money to my name at all. And to go to where I am now, where I look at you know the life I've built and my kids. And when people say to me, Oh, you know, are you rich? I go, Yeah, I've got four children. Like that's my wealth. To me, that's my highest achievement. You know, I don't care about the trophies and the medals, nothing, none of that matters because I was only doing what I knew what to do, like helping people, helping them, you know, on the onto the ladder, helping them with their finances. But the driving force behind it was so I can have a life I want with my kids, and being a present mom to my kids because my mom worked crazy hours. I hardly saw my mother growing up. So for me, and I mean I knew she was working to provide for us. So for me, I wanted to provide for my children, but I wanted to be present. Yeah, yeah, and do the school drop-offs and do the school pickups and you know, and cook them food and things like that. So it's kind of cool looking at my family, and we've got a joke that the crazy Italian family, because they're like loud and and they just so for me, that's my that's my wealth, you know. And I always say to them, look, when when you grow old, you know, you'll have to look after your mom. But instilling the same beliefs in them that I had growing up is that you know, money is not everything in life, no, it's your attitude to life, it's you know, not giving up at things when things get hard, yeah, not building that resilience, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Continuing to uh seeing obstacles as challenges or opportunities or opportunities for growth and not feeling not giving up, but finding a way through or believing in yourself in a deep kind of way, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yeah, and that's what I'm grateful for. I was just um reflecting on that yesterday, that the I was talking to a friend and she said, Oh, you know, I don't know what to do with my daughter, she's 13, she doesn't want to go to school. And you know, from one hand, her body, her choice, if she doesn't want to go to school, well, that's fine. But then from another hand, I feel like a bad parent because I should be forcing her to go to school, you know. So I don't know, I'm confused because when we were growing up, we were forced to do what our parents forced us to do, and you know, we grew up now and we don't know how to listen to ourselves. Yeah, I said, Yeah, but at the same time, you're a parent, and until the child is 18, you're the parent, you brought this kid into the world, you're responsible for them. Yeah, you're gonna instill those things in them, and they don't they're not gonna learn it, you're not there to be their friend, because that's what she's trying to do, you know. She's trying to be a friend for them. And I felt really mean afterwards as I walked away. I was like, Man, did I just give her earful? But yeah, I feel the same as my children, you know. I feel like I I'm not there to be their friend, I'm there to parent them into the world where they're ready, money-wise, attitude-wise, work ethics-wise. Yeah, and that's what my grandmother instilled in me.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Yeah, so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, yeah, like she she taught me about in a way without realizing, I think she taught me about the money because I remember sitting next to her or going to the shops and markets, and she would always haggle with people about the price, and you know, and I used to die with shame because I was like, Oh my god, how can you like haggle with someone about the price, this poor farmer? But apparently it was part of the game as well. Yeah, but I have those skills, and I didn't realize it was actually she was a great negotiator, yeah. And now I've realized sometimes I get this out of me when I'm negotiating deals with the banks, or you know, how I can get better better terms and conditions for my clients. I've realized all the skills are coming out from there, from that belief that I had as a kid.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Oh, you lucky thing getting taught how to negotiate with your grandma at the market. That sounds so good. I'd have loved to have learned that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah, I mean, at that time it was the most embarrassing thing I could have experienced. But now it's so useful, yeah. Exactly. What I want to find out was after you've like surveyed all these people and things, what's the most common money belief that you see people have that you know most of the Well, everyone's different, but often there's something like money is bad is a quite a common sort of in some way, you know, it's a bit gauche to talk about it, or there's something unfeminine about it, or there's something wrong with it.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

And you know, for me, you know, really in the book it teaches you how to explore and unpack a money belief. And my way of doing that is like I think about if that's true. And say you had a painting, like a canvas and some paints, and you painted a picture. It might be a beautiful picture, it might be an awful picture. Whatever it is, it's not the paint's fault. It's the it's the artist. And I think money is like the paint. You can do all these things with money. You can build a share portfolio, you can donate, you can look after your family, you can look at it, it's sort of not money that is to blame their blame's a funny word, but it's the what's in the heart of the person or what's in the heart of the artist is is directly connected to what they create with their resources. And so that money is neutral and you know, the place to look is like in people's behavior. If I want to get upset because people are spending their money on something and I think they should spend it here, then it's more about the behavior of people than whether money is good or bad.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

It's interesting you say that because often, you know, when people come to see me, they want to buy a house and and they're worried that they're not good with money. And that's the word I usually hear. I don't think I've been good with money.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah. Yeah. Often, you know, women who come into the high

Women’s Wealth Gap And The Pink Tax

SPEAKER_00 23:20

money course frequently say that. And what happens when they tell their money story and they realize they're not alone and they're like, oh, they're like, actually, I'm really good with money. Money is really easy. It's heaps easier than raising three kids or working in the arts or a millionaire. The thing that was in their her way is usually a belief that it's a bit, it's a bit yucky to think about it or talk about it, or it's somebody else's job, or it's too hard, or they'll do it later, or so just clearing up this sort of beliefs or getting more clear about how a person feels about it often completely dissolves that belief. Of course I'm good with money. Money's really simple. I do a thousand harder things every day. Yeah, it's just investing and budgeting and you know, numbers. It's actually really simple.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

And it's you know, I often compare this to driving in the fog. You'd be driving in the fog and you just don't know what's on the other side. And sometimes people, you know, they get freaked out, they turn around, uh, they don't want to continue to drive through the fog. And I find the same as money. Like if you often that money is like a fog over people's heads, yeah, and they feel a bit lost. But the moment you start clearing out through that fog and you keep driving through that pain, eventually you come out and it's all beautiful sunshine.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Yeah, yeah. I think high money in the book is like some headlights for that fog. Like, let's just look at the fog because when you look at it, it's just a whole lot of stuff that dissolves, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah, I love that. I love that. So with your high money course, you still run those courses for people at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

It's an it's an online course where you get a 30-day course, you get an email every day exploring one aspect of your money psychology. And sometimes through the year we do groups, so women come together in Zoom groups and we do the course together. And of course, the it's in the book as well, and money, money, money, and it's all sort of there, including like women's stories and different participants' experiences. So reading the book is almost like doing the course, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

I love that. So they can either choose to do the course with you or they can buy the book and um go through it. Um, are there any platforms that you have where people can go and discuss the book or discuss their findings and experiences?

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Well, a lot of people have bought the book and formed a little, you know, a WhatsApp group or found a money buddy, a safe money buddy, or a few, and they've been doing the book together and you know, WhatsApping each other and meeting up and you know, we really encourage that because I think when women talk about money together, it's just really great. And then you've got safe people to talk about your mortgage with or how you want to restructure this and that, and you sort of make a little safe sort of money group. So lots of people do that, and we highly recommend it because it just makes it more fun as well.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Yeah, but it's also like you know, when you go to a group exercise, you're having a PT like I see you more as a PT, yeah, then there's a group exercises as well that it just pumps you up, yeah, and just gets you encouraged, even on the days when you don't want to do it, on the days when you don't want to face it, yeah, you have your book as a PT going, Hey, come on, you got this. Exactly. Yeah. What sort of money beliefs you or habits you had to unlearn yourself through this journey?

SPEAKER_00 26:41

I think because I was in the arts, there was an idea that if I just made a really good film or something, I would just get a prize or just suddenly get really rich. And I think so. I sort of had that lotto belief for a long time. And what I've come to realize is that if I could go back in a time machine and just get my 18-year-old self to put the price of a beer or something in an index fund, 10 bucks a week, 20 bucks a week, I'd essentially be retired or I'd have paid off my mortgage now. Like money is incredibly boring. You just put a little bit away all the time, you know, in something low risk or at the right risk level for you, and you just keep doing it. Like exercise, you just keep exercising every day, and then one day you're really fit. So I think maybe that money belief isn't like money will fall out of the heavens on my head one day. It's just do the work every day and it's boring and it's simple, but just stick at it and you'll be really glad that you did.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Yeah. What about what about for you? What's your money belief?

SPEAKER_01 27:50

I love how you're interviewing me now. It's a good one. It's interesting because again, as I say, like money wasn't really talked about at home. So looking back at it now, a lot of money things I've learned was through observing and through being in the in those environments. See, in my country, you grew up with a belief that a girl marries a man and a man has to take care of a girl. Like, you know, it's the man that usually a lot of resources get put into man that to get them into good money habits and that. Versus for me, it was like, well, you know, you'll eventually marry someone, someone will look after you. You need you know, you can get a rich husband. This is for me, I never wanted a rich husband. For me, I knew husbands can die because my dad passed away really early. My mom was 37. Oh my god, I was seven. So my dad suddenly passed away at the age of 44. So for me, I was like, Well, men can die. They're not gonna be here forever to look after you. And I was looking at my mum, and lucky that my mom worked through the entire marriage, even though it was frowned upon, she worked through, and that's why we were okay, you know, we weren't poor, but we weren't rich or wealthy. So I always had the belief that I have to work super hard in order to have money, yeah. And that's what got me to to where I am now. But now that I'm growing up a bit older and learning about other things, I'm like, actually, do I have to work super hard? Do I have to work 24 hours you know in a day? No, there are other ways as well. You know, you can put money aside, you can put even if you don't know anything, like I don't know anything about shares, but but I heard about shares, and I was like, Oh, that looks like a simple platform, and I just started putting money aside. And as you say, I just started with absolute simple, small amount every month. I was putting money for the last few years, and now I looked at the balance the other day and I was like, Wow, that's actually doing all right for someone that just keeps going. And yeah, so I think it's just really the money belief around that you have to work super, super hard. There's no one coming to save you. You're the only one that can save yourself, but at the same time, I had to rein in my spending because I blame my star sign. I'm a sagittarius, you know. We I live on the basis of hey, freedom and good luck, and we got lucky. Um I I always had money. I don't know how it happened, like even $20, I would always find money in my pockets in secret tutorial accounts. But every time I would think I hit the rock bottom and I didn't have money to buy diapers for my kid, I would put a certain coat on and I'll put my hand in and there'll be a note. And to me, I always thought, how lucky I am. You know, I always have money stashed away somewhere. And that's what sort of again looking back at it over the last 15 years of my life, I realized I've been stashing money without thinking about it. Like I would always try not to spend every last dollar, even though I thought I was spending every last dollar. Yeah, but somehow I would stash money away and find it when I needed it.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Yeah, I would love it. In the book, there's a chapter on something called limits because everyone has a sort of an upper and lower money limit, like what's what's too little and what's too much, or what's enough. And that that bottom number is like, what's your emergency cushion, or what do you need to get down to before you really panic? And it sounds like you told yourself you didn't have you were at zero, but actually you're secretly stashing a whole lot of stuff there, making a little emergency cushion for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Yeah, unbeknown to me. And I mean, yeah, the lesson for me was around when my husband and I separated two years ago. Oh, yeah. You know, him and I, we were building really good life together. We had properties, we had, you know, good jobs, I had good business. So we were we were doing okay on paper and outside, we were doing actually okay. And then what hit me was when we separated, and suddenly I had all this dead just by myself, and that was freaking to me. That was a point in life where

Updating Beliefs For Saving And Investing

SPEAKER_01 31:50

I went, huh? Now I really don't have anyone to rely on, and now I really have to work extra hard. Yeah, yeah. And at that point, I always laugh about this term, and I think maybe one day when I write a book, it will be, you know, go big or go home. And for me, in that point of life, I decided to go home. So I packed up the kids and off we went across the world, and I spent two and a half months overseas. I went back home, I went to you know, travel with the kids. It was the best two and a half months of my life where I absolutely spent every single dollar of my anything that I had, I absolutely spent it to rebuild myself again. Yeah, because I felt like this is what I needed at that point of time for my therapy, for my children's therapy. Yeah, absolutely. You needed to just have that time. Yeah, it was a really good reset. And then after I've come back, I was like, and now we can go big. That's when you know the podcast was born, that's when uh my team grew, that's when I absolutely stretched myself to bigger limits. Every time I thought, oh, I think I hit my limit, somehow it stretches again, and it's still as you know, as people talk about containers, like how big is your money container? Yeah, and how big, how bigger you can make that container go.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Yeah, there's another chapter here called Thinking Big, and we get women to yeah, think as stretch that muscle as far as you can. Like it sound feels naughty, but like just want a whole lot of stuff. How big, how bad can you go? And often women are like, Oh, I could think of another few pairs of shoes. You're like, you can go more than that. Go and like, could I buy an island? Am I buying a theme park? And one woman said, I can't, I can't think about all these things for myself because we need world peace. But actually, that exercise is it's unlimited. I'm just gonna have we can have world peace and a beach house and uh but just to sort of notice the barriers that people put up in their minds about how big it's possible for them to go or what they can achieve. It's really interesting. Yeah, just the sort of invisible barriers that are there and to explore them and change them.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

What are your goals now? What are your big goals? At least one. Give me one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

I guess I love this money psychology work and I'd love to do it around the world. I feel like we've started here in New Zealand and Australia, but it'd be so exciting to do it internationally. So that's something I love. And, you know, while we're writing the book, I bought a second property, which was really exciting. That's awesome. So yeah, I think yeah, I'd like to really build myself some secure some proper security for my retirement. So just thinking about how to do that. And obviously, you know, things changing in the world a lot at the moment, and there's a lot of sort of ups and downs. So trying to be clear, clear-eyed and grounded, and also like you were saying, grounded in what really matters, you know, like relationships, you know, health, all those things that are non-material, as well as thinking about my financial well-being.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

Yeah, because that's what they say, right? Like you could have all the money in the world, but if you don't have your health, or if your relationships are ruined with the people you love, what's the point to that money?

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's it's a chapter in the book, too, of like really getting clear about what really matters to you. Because money is just a way to have more of that, you know, to grow your relationships or to have more beauty or more space or learn more. And you know, I uh we often work with women with high net worth as well, because I notice that it doesn't really matter whether women have a lot of money or not very much, there's still a lot of stress around it. But I think that the wealth thing is like what's enough and what really matters to me. Where do I want my money going in service of and what are the things that really nourish and support me in my life? And yeah, what do I want to grow? So those questions are so important, you know, wherever one is on the numbers and the bank balance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah. Did you have to do any specific courses around the therapy and financial therapy and financial psychology?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

I guess it's something that no, you know, I sort of because I work as a therapist and go really deep with people, this is quite light, you know. It's just really a series of questions and explorations. And but, you know, when I started to do the work, I I once wrote down my relationship with money, and then I wrote down my relationship with my mother, and they were almost exactly the same. I was like, Wow, yeah. So that's sort of where that the book doesn't go as deep as that. But if if we were to go really deeply into therapy, then you might start to look at some of that really early stuff around attachment and those really primal, primary relationships and how because I think money is security, and parents or mothers are often security. So this can be some really interesting parallels if you can go if when you go really deep down into the therapeutic world.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

Yeah. Where can people find help for that? For those that are listening and that really want to, you know, go, okay, that's it. Today I'm changing my day, my one, my world, my life. I'm gonna get really good with money going forward.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

I need therapy, money therapy. I mean, I would personally first read this book because everything we've poured every possible amazing therapeutic thing in there, and it will give you a really good start. And then I think if you want to go deeper, lots of women said in our course, they're like, I can't believe I've been in therapy talking about my boyfriend all these years. I wish I was talking about money. You can go to any therapist you like and ask to work on your relationship with money or security, and you'll probably unlock a lot and find a huge amount of yeah, things that are really interesting and and free up a lot of that energy. So, and of course, I'm a therapist, I do work like that with my clients often. So you could come and see me if you wanted to as well.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

What's Angela's background? How come you guys throw it up together?

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Angela is really incredible at gender equity. So she her thing is feminism and really getting clear about the inequity and the structures that support that favor male well-being, really. You know, so you know, why are women retiring with 25% less than their Kiwi savour? They're not working less, they're not, you know, like they're exactly equal, but it's the whole system. And Anne just finds that fascinating. And she's recently done a podcast about the pay equity stuff that happened in parliament, and she's sort of been a champion of you know, of of gender equity maybe for 20 or 30 years. So that's how we sort of combined, and she works in finance, and so she sort of brings a bit more of that practical kind of there's a whole lot of tools, practical tools here in the book as well. And and the third, the fourth part of the book is we wanted to talk about money and couples. Like you said, so many people lose wealth when they separate, and they don't really always know the rules. And if you did know the rules when you were starting out, you might protect

Thinking Big Without Losing What Matters

SPEAKER_00 39:00

your inheritance and not put it into the mortgage or all that sort of stuff. So we've got a couple of lawyers have sort of weighed in and things that they wish people knew before they went through those processes. So there's a whole lot on the book about that, and there's also wealth transfer, which can also be really fraught. So yeah, Ange and I sort of collaborated on that sort of more practical stuff too.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

I mean, we are seeing the I think the largest wealth transfer that you know, generational wealth transfer that we would have seen in our lifetimes.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

And most of it's going to women. Women are coming into possession of more wealth than they've had since the dawn of time in this great wealth transfer.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

And if they don't know what to do with money.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Yeah. That's right. We did a woman in wealth event, and one of the women's her husband was outside driving around the event in his car, and he was so scared of her learning about her money and taking charge of it that he didn't want to let it go. I was like, yeah. So there's a lot of really interesting stuff there. And women taking charge and feeling really confident about their money and what they want to do with it in the world because there's a huge opportunity here for women to use that power to do really special things.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Yeah, and I think we are living in the world where everyone is coming a little bit wok. I don't really like that word, but I feel like, yeah, people are waking up and they're seeing that oh, there is more to life. I should be learning more. I'm curious about this. And I think thanks to resources like you provide, I think it's it's just gonna really change people's lives and really transform them.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Yeah, Angie and I, you know, we wrote the book because we were like, we just want more money in the hands of more women. We want, and when women have more money, they often look after their kids or they invest in communities, and you know, everybody benefits from that.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

So yeah, yeah, they don't. I mean, no offense to men, but they don't tend to usually neglect their families or go gambling or drink. Yeah, I mean, some do, some do. Some do overall, funny you mentioned the private island. I'm still stuck there because that was one of my goals that I've written on one time when I was told to dream big. And I was like, Oh, how big can I dream? Oh, I'm gonna have an island. So that's on my list as well.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Maybe you could put a theme pack on it. I don't know. Can you go bigger?

SPEAKER_01 41:28

My one is a retreat. I really want to have a retreat island for women. Ah, lovely. Yeah, have a private island, but have a retreat aspect to it. So, you know, lots of single mums or teenagers, or you know, make it a really cool retreat island where I'll have professionals looking after them and you know, nourishing them and having you know, nutritionals experts and exercise experts, and how you everything works together, your mind, body, and spirit. That sounds like a great island. I'd love to go. I will let you know when I get there. Thank you, Rachel. Any parting words if you if you were gonna, you know, pass on a message to the listeners today. Like, you know, if you if you could get them to do one thing differently with money, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 42:13

I guess I'd say go gentle. There's so much shame around money. Like, please be really gentle with yourself and just be curious and just have a little gentle look. There's nothing wrong with you, it's not too late. Just please gently begin looking at your how you feel about money or what you tell yourself about money. And yeah, no, no harshness, no shame, just gentle, gentle, gentle.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

I love that. It's like it's like you almost just cuddled everyone now.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Just a little cuddle because we've all been, you know, we all get told off so much. I've been told off about money a million thousand times, so gotta turn that around. It's that that's no more.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

I love that. I really, really love that. You know, I employ people to do the admin work for me because I hate looking through, you know, paperwork, statements, bank statements, etc. So when I deal with my clients, I say, look, you don't need to feel because a lot of them come in and they feel shamed that, oh, you know, I don't want you to look through my statements because you'll find blah blah blah. And I said, Don't worry about it. I don't even look at it. My my staff are trained, like me, with my eye, what

Go Gentle And Where To Start

SPEAKER_01 43:20

they were looking for, but I personally won't look unless I really have to. I personally won't look at it because I'm not looking at it to shame you. I'm looking at it to see how I can help you with that. Yeah, and you can just see people's guards drop and they just finally someone's not going to be judging me.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Yeah, I think that's so important. It's so important. Yeah, I wish that in our research, it was like I think 45% of people or women said that their financial institutions didn't understand them. And I think I wish banks knew that, you know, because often there's a sort of slightly shamey, you know, like the avocado toast latte kind of ideas of like, well, you're there's something a bit bad about how you spend your money, and and I think it's a really a really big mistake because it when people talk to me like that, I just close down and I just don't engage.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Of course, of course. I usually make a joke about what are you willing to sacrifice? Yeah. I mean you can't you you can have it all at some point, but right now, as you're just starting out, you can't have it all. Yeah, so you've got to be willing to sacrifice something in order to get something.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

What do you really want? What really matters.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Yeah, exactly. Oh, I I can't wait to read your book, Rachel. Thank you so so much. And yeah, I just I just hope that listeners today have learned something from this. And just just once again, a shout out to your company. Where can they go? What's the website? And we'll put it in the footnotes.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Yeah, so please have a look at highmoney.nz if you want to check out the course, or you can read the research that we did. And you can also buy our book, Money, Money, Money. It's in every bookshop in Wellington and in New Zealand, sorry, and in Australia also. And you can buy it online and we'd love to hear what you think of it.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Beautiful. Thank you so much, Rachel.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Zemanis, so thank you. Such a pleasure to be on your podcast.