Speaker 1: 0:10

Hello and welcome to Nick Hakes, the CEO of Financial Advice New Zealand. Hello, Nick.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Good morning Zebedusa.

Speaker 1: 0:19

Thank you so much for coming down all the way from Auckland.

Speaker 2: 0:23

Yes.

Speaker 1: 0:23

I appreciate you so much. This is unbelievable to have the legend in my office.

Speaker 2: 0:28

Well, not quite, but I'm glad to be here. It's good.

Speaker 1: 0:32

Thank you, and let's talk a little bit today about financial advice, new Zealand. What does it mean for normal people and where your vision is. Because you're a new guy on the block, aren't you?

Speaker 2: 0:43

I'm the new kid on the block.

Speaker 1: 0:44

Yeah. I don't know if you can still claim that, though. How long has it been for you in this role?

Speaker 2: 0:49

We're coming up to a year, I think 10 or 11 months, so I'll push it out for as long as I possibly can.

Speaker 1: 0:54

Okay, no, that's fine If Trump can do it after five years and you can do the same. He's like I didn't know.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Let's not use that analogy too much, but I can be the new kid.

Speaker 1: 1:05

No, you are the new kid, nick, and over the last 11 months it's been an absolute pleasure getting to know you through various interactions that we've been having, and it seems they're increasing more and more. So Financial Advice, new Zealand what is it?

Speaker 2: 1:20

We are the professional body for financial advisors. That's what we are. So about five, six years ago. There were a number of industry bodies across the financial advice sector, lots of leadership at the time, because those tribes came together of financial planners, mortgage advisors, life insurance advisors and they formed Financial Advice New Zealand with the purpose of being the professional body, the authentic voice of advice to government regulators, media, industry. And so, six years on, here we are going strong and so, yes, I'm nearly one year into the role and super excited about the future.

Speaker 1: 2:10

That's awesome. What's your background, Nick? Where did you come from?

Speaker 2: 2:13

Where do I come from? Grew up in Christchurch, auckland, like a lot of Kiwis, had my OE I didn't realize at the time it was going to be a one-way ticket for many years, and so then professionally spent many years in the Australian financial advice profession and then, more recently, several years living in Singapore, working mostly in Southeast Asia, and then this role came up and the universe conspired, and, for a mix of professional and personal reasons, I very much wanted my kids to have some of the upbringing that I did, and so the timing was right to bring the family home to New Zealand, and so now I'm one of the people who are coming back, not heading out, and so, yeah, it's great to be back home.

Speaker 1: 3:05

That's awesome, and that's something I've noticed about New Zealanders is they always come back home.

Speaker 1: 3:11

Well, yes, it's a good place to be home, so yeah, yeah, and I'm so proud to call New Zealand home now, because I've been in New Zealand for about 20 years and I feel like this is home. This is where I want my kids to grow up as well, and this is why I guess you and I in this industry trying to make a difference as much as we can for those. So in the Financial Advice New Zealand we've got, as you mentioned, we've got life insurance folks, we've got investment planners and we've got mortgage advisors Yep, and what's your role in it? What do you do with all those organizations and the government?

Speaker 2: 3:47

So, importantly, my perspective is that we're all financial advisors, we all have the same education standards, we're all regulated the same, we all solve problems for clients. The way in which we solve those might be around specialization, so it could be one of those three disciplines, but also it could be around being a bit of a generalist as well. And so we see lots of financial advisors say, well, I do do mortgage advice, so I help people there, but I also can help them then protect their asset through life insurance. And so I think, importantly, we need to just consider ourselves as financial advisors who help people. And so my role CEO, I guess it's to be the voice, the face of the organization. It's to be the conduit between our members and government and the regulators, other industry bodies, and so to me, if I can do my job well, it means that financial advisors are being respected. We're growing the sector, we're encouraging more Kiwis to go and see a financial advisor, and so, yeah, my job is just to make you and every other financial advisor look good, zemanuso.

Speaker 1: 5:12

Thank you. Thank you, nick. Why would someone want to use a financial advisor versus just going directly in the bank, Like historically, a lot of people just walk in the bank and get that advice for mortgages, insurances, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 5:23

We should flip that question around and I should ask you that why do people come see you? So you know, globally, the trends are all the same. Is that financial advice and the provision of professional financial advice? Yeah, this is an emerging profession, like in the scheme of things, we're relatively young compared to other established professions such as medicine and engineering and teaching, and so one of the big challenges that we have as an industry is clearly articulating why people would come and see us, and quite often, what happens is that people will naturally leave it to this point of crisis.

Speaker 2: 6:06

Take retirement, for example. It's like all of a sudden they wake up in the morning and go my goodness, do I actually have enough to retire on? Or they might say how do I get ahead in life? So what should I invest in? What should I do with my money? How do I live the life that I want to? And there is no other professional that I have come across or can think of that has the insight into a family's financial situation and their health situation and that sits down and said so what does your good life look like? And when we get people to start articulating the life that they want to leave, what's most important to them and we start to navigate the way through the emotional and the financial decision-making that everybody takes. Then this is what financial advisors do in my mind. We're a caring profession. We help solve problems for clients, and a lot of the outcome of that is financially better off, but also peace of mind and being emotionally better off too financially better off, but also peace of mind and being emotionally better off too.

Speaker 1: 7:23

Yeah, you've said it. So, old Nick, I got nothing. I got nothing in there, and that's the thing. We help people along the way and for some reason, I think over the years, more and more people are using us, which is fantastic, but there is still a lot of stigma or there's still a lot of unknown, I think, for consumers that we are actually accessible and we are. In most cases, it is free to use our services as well. I can't speak for the other advisors, but in majority of cases you know they can reach out and they can get some help. Reach out and they can get some help. But what are the hurdles? At the moment that you see the differences between Australia and New Zealand, because you were in Australian financial scene there, now that you're in New Zealand, what are the difference between the two countries?

Speaker 2: 8:04

So the drivers of anyone in any market going to see a financial advisor are all the same. It's how can I make some decisions financial decisions that start to let me live the life that I want to, and then also, then, how do I avoid some financial decisions which might actually destroy wealth rather than create wealth? So the drivers are all the same.

Speaker 2: 8:29

The difference between the New Zealand market and Australia is we have a really positive regulatory environment, and so what I mean by that is we have this barrier to entry, so there's a good level of people entering into the profession. So, going through education and professional standards so, going through education and professional standards, we have a very rewarding pathway, and so the regulations are not over-described. And so what that means is that, if we compare to some other markets, layers and layers of complexity, layers and layers of documentation actually takes people away from actually why they're sitting in front of an advisor and they're getting given 100 page documents which are not an easy to understand language. That's actually not conducive to people understanding what's being recommended to them, and so we have a um, a more simply structured environment, which means that when people sit down with a well-qualified professional advisor, the advice that is offered can be easily understood and it's not sometimes buried in 100-page documents.

Speaker 1: 9:46

Just for the tick box for the regulators.

Speaker 2: 9:48

Yeah, so that's a big difference, and so we have what's called here a principles-based regime, which actually means that the advisor-client conversation can be removed, with lots of onerous over-documentation, for example. So simplification doesn't mean that it's any longer less regulated. Simplification just means it can be easy to understand and the process is simple. So it's affordable and it's accessible. And if we think about what do we ultimately want to do, we want to help more and more Kiwis in their financial decision-making, and so having an environment that is affordable and accessible is really conducive to people getting great advice.

Speaker 1: 10:32

Yeah, no, that's fantastic. So, in terms of people coming onto the scene now as financial advisors, do you think more people coming or more people leaving? What are you seeing at the moment through you being where you are and having the data?

Speaker 2: 10:48

Yeah, the financial advisors who are currently in the industry match pretty much the demographic shape of New Zealand, and so there's lots of people who are heading towards retirement, and so we need to think about where does the next generation of advisors come from? And you know, what's interesting with this is that if we go back a number of decades, the way in which people come into professional services is different. Today, more and more people go to university, for example, than what's happening 50 years ago, and so, as we build awareness of financial advice, we need to think about how do we attract the next generation? So we have a war for talent, just like every other industry. So how do we attract the very best and brightest people to say this is what a rewarding career to be a financial advisor. That's what I want to be when I grow up.

Speaker 1: 11:51

Yeah, and it's a big task for you to overcome because, as you say, it's relatively a new industry to be in relatively new profession.

Speaker 2: 12:00

Yeah, but it's not just all up to me, it's a team effort.

Speaker 1: 12:03

So we're all in this together.

Speaker 2: 12:05

But you know, people say it's a really rewarding career and it is about helping people, and so, as an industry and financial advice New Zealand does play a big role here is that we need to articulate why people would want to enter into the profession and we need to create the pathways. And then we also need to shine a light on all the really good stuff that happens. So people see that and they go gee, I think I'd be. This is something I'd want to do.

Speaker 1: 12:33

Yeah, and for me personally, I want to see more women in this industry because when I came into this industry about 12, 15 years ago now, I found it was heavily male-dominated industry because historically I mean, women are stay-at-home mums or they do careers that align with their children better, like being a teacher, for instance. So then you've got school holidays off to look after your kids. But I think working in this industry and yes, it can be demanding and yes it can be hard, but I've managed to do it around four of my children and I think it is possible for women to do it around their kids.

Speaker 2: 13:07

You're the success story, you're the pinup girl. So, yeah, yeah, it's true. So, uh, traditionally, uh, it has been more of a male dominated industry, and we need to get that balance right. Um, but, what's interesting, you go to markets in asia and it's the other way around, really, yeah, and so it because of that flexibility, um, you know, you can go into into industry events and it's dominated by women. So it's around the other way, and a lot of the leaders of institutions and really influential people at an industry level also happen to be women.

Speaker 2: 13:45

So it doesn't. So the story doesn't actually have to play out the same, but it is. You know, if we are going to attract the best and brightest and the next generation of advisors, we also need to make sure that we've got the right balance, and that's not just about gender split, it's also about making sure we are reflecting what society and communities look like culturally. And so, yeah, initiatives like the community of practice to help women within financial advice along their professional pathway, so we can have more people follow in your footsteps, have been so critically important, just to create those professional pathways. So we have more success stories like you.

Speaker 1: 14:32

Yeah, exactly, and look, I don't think I'm anything special. I think there are many other women out there that are doing fantastic work and, thanks to you and Financial Advice New Zealand, I managed to meet some of those women outside of my own organization to see what other good is happening out there, and it's mind-blowing the amount of information that's being shared around at the moment and the positive change that we all want to see, pretty much along the same lines of you know, let's educate the consumers, let's educate the women to get into this workforce as well. So it's really cool. It's really empowering to be part of it. So thank you so much for you know, keeping a check on me and constantly pulling me in various directions with Financial Advice New Zealand. It's kind of cool.

Speaker 2: 15:20

It's a pleasure the feedback and the observation that you know within Financial Advice. If we're running our own small little businesses, sometimes it can be a little bit lonely and then you think what are people doing out there? And so within the industry I don't think we compete with each other.

Speaker 1: 15:41

No, no, I don't get that sense at all. I think everyone is backing each other and helping each other, and there were situations when you know someone had a tough client situation. If I had a tough client, we could actually talk to each other about how we can solve this, or even referring to each other as well. We've had that happening as well.

Speaker 2: 16:00

Yeah it's a really important part of our culture as an industry, I think, to not only help the consumer but also to help each other. We can only get better through that. And then you know to think about all the different ways in which we can potentially solve client problems and issues. You know, we can only get better if we're constantly refining our skills with other practitioners and peers, and so the sense of a community of practice, where we bring people together from different parts of the country, different skill sets, it's that convergence of peer-to-peer learning which ultimately helps our industry grow. But it also then has a knock-on effect to helping solve problems for clients in better, more efficient ways. So, yeah, it's such an important part of our culture.

Speaker 1: 16:51

Exactly, Nick. Let's talk a little bit about the conference. We've got a conference coming up. Do you want to share a little bit of information?

Speaker 2: 16:59

about that and what's going to happen at the conference. Sure, so National Advisor Conference is in Christchurch 1st to 3rd of April, and the largest gathering of financial advisors in the country. The aspiration is the center of advice excellence, and, and what we mean by that is how do we bring together practitioners from all over the country with those different skill sets, the different scopes of advice, the different uh solutions that they they provide for their clients, and get the the blend of what's best in new ze, but also what are some of the trends that's happening overseas, and bring that here? So, rather than constantly go out looking for the very world's very best ideas and the leading edge of advice, why don't we bring them here? And there's a pretty good mix of some international visiting experts, but the bit that I'm really pleased with is that the amount of New Zealand experts that we've got. You know there's heaps of them and we can all learn from each other. And so yeah, six weeks out, national Advisor Conference in Christchurch.

Speaker 1: 18:10

How many have we got attending? Have you checked?

Speaker 2: 18:13

So not that I keep a tab on this every single day, cause that would be wrong, but we're trending really well, so so we'll we'll have over 400 and and you know it's tracking strongly at the moment and and so you know, obviously the more the better, the more ideas there are. So, yeah, it's tracking well.

Speaker 1: 18:33

Christchurch will have no idea what hits them, eh.

Speaker 2: 18:35

When you get a group of advisors all together and you just, you know, look out, that's when the magic starts.

Speaker 1: 18:41

I'm excited this is going to be my first conference. I've missed out in the past due to me being overseas or travelling or whatever, and I think sometimes it coincided with the Mike Pirro conference so I was never able to attend the Financial Advice New Zealand one. So this year I'm super excited to attend and also, you know, to be on the agenda and to speak about.

Speaker 2: 19:03

How do we create pathways for women in advice and and, and how do we? What's your session on? The?

Speaker 1: 19:12

the modern family the modern family, yeah, the modern blend of family.

Speaker 2: 19:15

See, this is real right, this is this is um.

Speaker 1: 19:18

So yeah, you're not only attending, you're on the program yeah, I didn't realize that until the agenda popped out and I saw my face there and I was like, oh, look at that expert speaking. Who is that?

Speaker 2: 19:29

that was me, that's you, so, so, yeah, so thank you.

Speaker 1: 19:32

Now it's and I think again the topic is close to my heart because I deal a lot with women and men, you know, through separations and then getting the blended families together and then them buying assets together and stuff like that, and also recently being through that myself, I've sort of been on that side and I've felt what it's like firsthand of been on that side and I felt what it's like firsthand. So it sort of adds that extra layer to my expertise now when I think about the past, the present and the future of the financial advice for the blended family. So thank you so much for putting me on the agenda. That's fantastic. I'm really excited now.

Speaker 2: 20:07

I'm sure you'll do a great job. It'll be good.

Speaker 1: 20:09

Yeah, no, it's cool. So, Nick, we talked about the financial advice in New Zealand, how it's important for the consumers to approach us, how it's important for the financial advisors to be part of it as well, because of that network that they're creating. We talked about the conference. Let's dive a little bit into the world of Nick and who actually Nick is. I know you've brushed over it, but what's your passion? What's your why? I need to understand.

Speaker 2: 20:36

Why do you want to be part of this? I didn't think we'd get all philosophical. At this time of day, we probably need red wine rather than black coffee. So a few years ago now, I was working for a wealth management company and someone tapped me on the shoulder and it's one of those life-defining moments, the sliding door moment that we all go through. And they said take a leap of faith from your cushy corporate job into an association and professional body. And so I did, and it was the best leap of faith that I ever did. I didn't know what I was leaping into, but all of a sudden, the role of a professional body in any industry sector.

Speaker 2: 21:23

You have this real cross -section of all of the moving parts, and fundamentally what we do is it's about helping people live their definition of a good life, and so that is a why it is a burning passion to go well. If we can do this well just not only at a business level, at an individual level, but at a whole sector level, imagine the country and the society and the community we could live in. Because we know and you see this every single day when you sit down with your clients you make a real difference financially and emotionally, and I guess for me it's. So how do we harness all of that that's taking place every day around the country and really make an impact at a national level? And so, yeah, that's the stuff that sort of gets me out of bed in the morning, without wanting to be all you know.

Speaker 1: 22:23

I feel like I've stepped into something here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:26

So it's true, what we do is really really important for families and people, and so if we can collate that and we can do that on a grander national scale, then that moves the dial.

Speaker 1: 22:41

You know, my phrase always used to be through the years is if you want to see the change, be the change. Because I feel, like you know, we could all sit on the couch and argue about how the world is unfair or how this should be done better, but unless you actually go and try to do it yourself, you don't know. So I admire you for taking that leap of faith without even knowing what you were leaping into.

Speaker 2: 23:04

It goes back to the conversation about the next generation of advisors is that we want more people to choose the career rather than sometimes fall into it by accident and I know I fell into it by accident and it was one of the best mistakes I've ever made. Immensely rewarding. Done that on the international stage and collect a few battle scars along the way and now come back to New Zealand to start implementing that change or being part of the change. Yeah, it's immensely rewarding.

Speaker 1: 23:39

That's really cool and especially like just if I go back to what you mentioned in Asia, you know how you had more females now leading the scene, which is really cool. So you've seen that happen. You see it works. So now we just need to convince New Zealand that, hey, it is possible, it does work. Let's make things happen, and that would be across multiple other things that I'm sure you would have seen what works well, what doesn't work well and learn from those mistakes. I think that's the advantage of New Zealand in a way.

Speaker 2: 24:09

Yeah, and learn from those mistakes, and I think that's the advantage of New Zealand in a way. Yeah, I mean, we have a smaller country and so it's very collegiate, it's less adversarial than some other, you know, larger country countries, and so that being smaller means that we can maybe get things done quicker and with less sort of adversary. And then you know to look at other markets, specifically around financial advice, and understand what has worked, but, critically important, what has not worked or had unintended consequences. And so I think that eyes wide open is, yeah, we can navigate our way through some of the pitfalls and some of the unintended consequences where regulation hasn't always ended up like it had intended. And, yeah, and big learnings from Singapore specifically, is what they do really well, is this alignment between a government policy, the industry engagement, regulation and, importantly then, skilling up and investing in the people. You know I think we've got the ability to harness those things here in New Zealand.

Speaker 1: 25:34

Because ideally, what I would like to see and I think what's lacking and I'm sure I've mentioned that to you before is that real schools that teach people real skills. And this is, you know, where we could tap into the knowledge of our veteran advisors that are on the way out to retire, because they've got so much knowledge that they can't pass on, because I feel like we are losing on that. And we've got all these new advisors coming through and no offense to the qualification they get, but it doesn't teach them real, real things. Like I've got some advisors that are joining my team, you know, and they've done the level five. Financial advice yes, it teaches them about legislation. Yes, it teaches them maybe how to put the deal together, but it doesn't give them that real juicy stuff that you get on the ground. So it's almost like that peer to peer, you know program or shadowing someone, cause that's how I learned in the bank. I was shadowing a banker for a week and that's where I've learned the best.

Speaker 2: 26:30

I was shadowing a banker for a week, and that's where I've learned the best. So experience counts, no doubt, and there's this difference between taking the theory and then putting it into professional practice, and that's true in lots of different industries. And so the question is how do we accelerate that mastery of professional practice? And we can. We can teach people how to do this, and we can expose them to environments where they do get to sharpen the saw. There's been some really great examples where software providers initiatives have gone into schools and so they've started to build awareness around financial capability, and so we can point to some great success stories that are already taking place.

Speaker 2: 27:18

In my travels around the country, I've been surprised and delighted at the same time. When you speak, speaking to an advisor, and they'll just say something. Like you know, for the last five years I've been going down to my local school and just spending a bit of time to educate the kids on the building blocks of knowledge when it comes to financial decision making. And you go, my goodness, it's like you'd be just doing this. You know, just unheralded, just you know off your own bat. So that's happening also a lot around the country. And then a new initiative which we've just put together to try to harness this stuff and put it onto the national agenda is a collaboration through the Retirement Commission. They have a national strategy for financial capability and so that is to go and raise the knowledge, the decision-making you know, so people can make more informed decisions. And so this new initiative, which we will lead and enable and support and collaborate across the industry with, is called the value of Professional Advice Through Life's Defining Moments.

Speaker 2: 28:31

And, to your point, zeb and Uso, what it recognizes is that we all participate in financial decision-making. We do so what level of financial capability do we have from the very start? And we can point to a whole heap of research that says if we get into schools, if we do it young, then people will be more informed. And the more informed they are then the more engaged they are in their financial decision making. And actually that's a really good trigger to then go and see a professional financial advisor, because they go.

Speaker 2: 29:04

My goodness, why would I be making this decision without some sort of expert help or some coaching around me to guide me through the process? And so, yeah, we're really looking forward to this initiative. It's a long term consumer focused initiative which we're going to do with the Retirement Commission, and it's not so much about people who are in retirement today. Actually, it's about going back multiple years to people who are just starting out on their financial journey. So they're in schools, they're leaving schools, they're getting started, and how do we harness all of the expertise that exists in our industry to, you know, promote financial capability, encourage people to go see financial advisors?

Speaker 1: 29:50

I love this, nick. I think you're onto something really cool here.

Speaker 2: 29:54

Team effort team, effort, team effort.

Speaker 1: 29:57

Yeah, there is no iron team, right? Yeah, and that's important because I find like if I only knew things that I know now, or even a fraction of it, when I was back, 16 or 17, because I didn't get any financial education at that age I mean, I finished high school here in New Zealand there wasn't really much. Yes, I did economics. Yes, I did some math, but there wasn't really much about what to do with your money, how to invest your money, how to save your money. It was just nothing. Nobody really talked about it and my family didn't teach me about that. So I got part-time jobs, I spent all my money. I didn't really invest, so it was until later down the track and I'm not sure if you know about this actually I talk about this one a lot Tawananga, aotearoa, they've got the certificate of money management course. Amazing, it was the best thing I could have ever done and that's the one that actually set me on the path of financial education and understanding the value of being educated around money and what to do with money.

Speaker 2: 30:54

That's great. I mean, there's an example of you know, an awareness, so you did the certificate and all of a sudden, you know, the eyes pop open. You go, my goodness, I could do this. And so not only did it help with the financial decision making, but also influenced your career choice. By the sounds of it.

Speaker 1: 31:13

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was around the same time as I started working at the bank as well, so it sort of coincided really well. But what made the difference? The guy that was teaching it. He was actually an investor himself, so he wasn't even a lecturer and he was teaching based on his own values and principles and beliefs and his knowledge. And I'm trying hard to track him down now. So I really want to find him and say thank you, because 15 years ago he absolutely changed my life.

Speaker 2: 31:36

Oh, that's amazing.

Speaker 2: 31:38

It's really cool, yeah, and so you know. I think the journey that we're on for the financial advice profession is that we are putting a body of knowledge so, when people choose to become an advisor, there's minimum barriers to entry, there's a standard that they need to achieve and then there's a professional pathway. That said, this is what it means to around professional obligations and standards to be an advisor, and here's this body of knowledge that sits behind it. But if we can take some of this theory and expertise and then we can also articulate it and coach people into building an awareness of the decisions they need to make, then as they grow up, they're going to want to go and work with financial advisors and ultimately, they'll then be in a better situation financially and emotionally.

Speaker 1: 32:36

No, that's awesome, Nick. Do you think any of your kids will end up in financial advice?

Speaker 2: 32:41

Oh, I wouldn't have a problem if others would be great. Yeah, because then they could look after me.

Speaker 1: 32:46

I love this Any parting words of wisdom.

Speaker 2: 32:52

I'm not sure I've got words of wisdom. Just this has been an enjoyable chat. This is part of the awareness as well.

Speaker 2: 33:00

You know how do we communicate this stuff into a broader audience? And yeah, I mean as an industry, I think we're in a good place. We're on this trajectory, which is positive and it's forward looking. And so, if we think about the demand for quality financial advice out there you know it's continually how do we encourage more people to sit down with you, zeb and Iso, with others all around the country, because we know that once that happens, then people truly get the understanding and go oh my goodness, why didn't I do this years earlier? And we set them on the right path. So we just need to not lose sight of why we do what we do.

Speaker 1: 33:47

No, thank you. Thank you, Nick, so much. It would be absolutely amazing to have you back, like in a year's time again, and just reflect back on the year that's been and you know where you found yourself and how much change.

Speaker 2: 33:57

Sure sounds good.

Speaker 1: 33:58

Awesome. Thank you, nick. Thank you All right, see you later See you, thank you.