Speaker 1: 0:28

Hello and welcome to Shauna Campbell from Avery Rentals. Hi Shauna.

Speaker 2: 0:33

Hi Zebenizo, how are you?

Speaker 1: 0:36

As you can hear, my voice is a little bit off tune today, but that's okay. Nothing that will stop me from recording the session with you, so you can't leave. I'm sorry, you're trapped, that's okay.

Speaker 2: 0:47

You're looking fabulous. Doesn't matter about the voice.

Speaker 1: 0:55

So, without further ado, Shaona, please tell our listeners who you are, where you're from, what do you do and why you're here today.

Speaker 2: 0:59

Okay, I'm Shona Campbell from Avery Rental Management. We deal with residential property management from Wellington to Levin and Wellington to Upper Hutt. We're located in Paraparam and Paekakariki. That's where me and Lydia, my business partner, are, and yeah, so that's pretty much what we do.

Speaker 1: 1:22

That's awesome. What led you to your journey in property management?

Speaker 2: 1:27

Well, I started out as an accountant and that's been my career for most of my life really, but I just really loved property management. I'm an investor myself and I've been in the property business for a very long time. Sometimes I've managed my own properties and sometimes I've rented them out and had a property manager.

Speaker 2: 1:48

So I've sort of experienced both sides and I sort of got a little bit sick of working very long hours as an accountant as an accountant and commuting and being stuck in a chair and a screen, and so I really realised I needed to change my lifestyle, and so I thought about you know, property management, mortgage broker, financial wealth. You broker financial wealth, you know I thought about all those things, because that's sort of what I love and I'm passionate about and I came up with property management was the one that would work with me the best, because it gave me total financial freedom and time freedom to be able to meet other people and not be behind a desk.

Speaker 1: 2:32

Really, yeah, yeah. I think more and more people these days are looking for opportunities to work, not just behind a desk.

Speaker 2: 2:39

Yeah, just work differently was really what I was looking for, and a lot more flexibility in life. So that's why I chose property management, and it has actually fitted the bill.

Speaker 1: 2:50

Yeah, that was going to be my next question, so how long has it been for you in this?

Speaker 2: 2:55

In doing this two years of having my own business with Lydia and yeah and I love it. I love working hard for myself and getting the rewards.

Speaker 1: 3:08

That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 3:09

That's what I really love and seeing it grow and being able to help people makes a big difference.

Speaker 1: 3:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:15

Not just landlords, but tenants as well. So, I really enjoy both parts.

Speaker 1: 3:19

That's awesome. So, Shona, if we've got listeners that are on the fence, should they become a landlord or not? Should they become an investor? What would you suggest for them to start?

Speaker 2: 3:32

Oh, to start, I would just recommend to just start. Don't wait. It only gets more and more expensive to buy property, so I also think that people will look at alternative ideas. I think that when I was an investor, it was a lot easier to become an investor and to integrate your portfolio. There were a lot more benefits. The environment has totally changed, so I think that we should see more people joining syndicates of property investors. So it just spreads the risk and the reward and workload. So yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:15

I think for young people that's probably a good way to go. It has its pluses and minuses. You know you have to really get on with these people because if it doesn't work it will end terribly. So you know, get financial advice, get a good lawyer, get an agreement set up going that way, but that's probably how I would recommend. This is not financial advice either, by the way.

Speaker 1: 4:37

Yeah, disclosure time.

Speaker 2: 4:38

Disclosure time, but that's what I'm recommending for my children is not necessarily doing it by themselves. Get other people to go in with them.

Speaker 1: 4:48

That's actually a really good tip, yeah, but you're right, like, if you set it up properly, it works.

Speaker 2: 4:52

Yes.

Speaker 1: 4:57

What else?

Speaker 2: 4:59

should the landlords be thinking about or the investors? I've just been to a property conference, so if you're planning on being an investor, I would highly recommend you join the Property Institute Investors and, as you can see, zemanizo is on the front page of this magazine. She looks beautiful and she's one of the people that have actually achieved property investment and wealth creation. So I think that they have lots of different people in this magazine on their stories, their journey, and it's a great way to find out how other people have done it, and there's lots of different ways to get into property investment. So, yeah, and I'd highly recommend joining the Property Investors Association, you can join anywhere in New Zealand.

Speaker 1: 5:51

Do you have to be a property investor to join?

Speaker 2: 5:53

No, you don't, and it's a great opportunity If you're starting to think about becoming an investor. Be around people that have already done it, learn from them, learn their mistakes. Definitely, the older investors that have been around a long time love sharing their stories, love sharing and helping. It's their way to give back to other people and to help them, so I highly recommend it. They have sessions once a month so you can go to the meetings. They have great speakers, so it's all related to property and there's a lot of different types of business people that are in those meetings that can help you, because when you become an investor, you really need to have a team of qualified people that will help you. Because when you become an investor, you really need to have a team of qualified people that will help you along the journey and it really makes a difference.

Speaker 1: 6:39

And, as the saying goes, you are the average five of five people around you. Yes, yes. So if you want to become a great property investor or do well in life, you want to surround yourself with people that already have walked the journey or in that same journey, with you?

Speaker 2: 6:59

Yes, definitely, and also the environment's changing. One thing that property investors do as well, other than the monthly meetings, is they have a conference. I love the conference because I get to buy a fancy outfit. I looked hot in my dress, I'm sure you did, Sean.

Speaker 1: 7:15

I would love to see some photos later. Yeah, yeah, I will Okay.

Speaker 2: 7:18

But the conference is over three days so it always changes in different locations. So even if you're an investor and you don't go to the property investors, you can still come to the conference. It's a great way for people that are in the individual groups to come and meet other people in the groups and also just to socially mix with people.

Speaker 1: 7:41

Where was?

Speaker 2: 7:41

this conference held. This one was held in Christchurch. So this is you get one of these little tags that show. So you just can't walk in and get the benefit of this conference. You have to have a tag it tells you everything that's going to be happening over the three days so you don't forget what to do and where to be. So yeah, and it was great. So you get down there on the Friday. They have a similar sort of format. So on a Friday you register for a half day and then they take you on a bus tour. So in Christchurch it was really interesting going on the bus tour because they take you on a bus tour. So in Christchurch it was really interesting going on the bus tour because they take you to areas that are good investment areas, areas that you wouldn't have thought about. They show you the new builds that have been going up, the change in landscape.

Speaker 2: 8:24

So in Christchurch it was a really interesting bus trip because we got to see what the impact of the Christchurch earthquake had had on landlords so you could see the land banking that was happening with all the car parks, big, huge car parks, no buildings on them, but they will be definitely future developments in the future. So they had those and then just up-and-coming areas.

Speaker 1: 8:49

So what's this? Up-and-coming areas.

Speaker 2: 8:52

I can't actually remember any of the names, but if we go to Christchurch I can show you.

Speaker 2: 8:56

Let's go on the bus tour, yeah yeah come on the bus tour that's what I'm recommending and also sort of areas that, because of the earthquakes, they couldn't actually they can't build on them now, so they've turned them into grass areas and parks and reserves, so you can sort of see what sort of areas you know they have actually changed. And also areas that you would have thought as an investor in Wellington would be a good area, because being by the beach is definitely prime real estate, but in Christchurch it's not necessarily true. Being closer into the city is actually more important than being out on the beach. So if you want a nice property to retire to on the beach, christchurch is the place to buy it.

Speaker 1: 9:37

Okay.

Speaker 2: 9:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:38

That's a really good tip, because I don't have any properties down South Island, so that's something I've been thinking about. You know, should I venture out that way?

Speaker 2: 9:46

Yeah, but that's a good tip yeah, and if you'd gone to the conference Zemanizo, you would have been able to meet some incredible property managers down there who also spoke at the presentation, and yeah, they have huge portfolios that they look after, they have significant investments themselves and just really impressive. Meeting people like that, you know, they really inspire you. I mean I think I'm good, but these people are amazing, just incredible you know and listening to their stories.

Speaker 1: 10:18

And again, right, like, as humans, we like to evolve, we like to go a step forward, because if we don't, we die. That's basic rules of survival, really. So coming across things like this is awesome, because that encourages you to do well, yes, to be better. Yes, definitely.

Speaker 2: 10:36

To go further.

Speaker 1: 10:37

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:38

That's really cool.

Speaker 1: 10:40

Okay, so conference is awesome. Be part of the property investors groups, et cetera. What else would you like to tell?

Speaker 2: 10:51

So, on the conference, just a little bit more about that. They have two days, so Saturday and Sunday, and they have various slots with speakers in there. We have Mike Yardley there, who is a very famous Australian investor, so he had some really interesting information. He provided some statistics. I thought I'd just share those with you. He said that there's 2 million New Zealand residential properties and 500 of those are private landlords, so that's quite a lot. He's also mentioned that emergency housing. We had 500 families in emergency housing over the COVID period. It's down now to 1,050. So that's an incredible change, which is good.

Speaker 2: 11:37

There's new legislation coming in for pets and animals. For landlords, this is a significant change and landlords are definitely not. They are keen on it in terms of it's a great thing for making tenants stay longer, but it's also a higher risk for them in terms of repairs and maintenance. However, the Tenancy Services has assured us that the actual bond claims that have happened through pet damage has been incredibly low. So that's why they're recommending that we do actually give people the opportunity to have pets cats and dogs and other animals. So, yes, I think that that landscape will change. We're definitely there'll be more like bond conditions with that pet agreements that'll include repair or damage afterwards.

Speaker 2: 12:34

So, yeah, I think it's actually a good change. I have animals in one of my properties. Before I was totally against animals, but I have actually changed. Some properties suit pets, some properties don't, and so if it's fenced it's a great property for animals, but if it's in apartments and no fencing it's not really suitable. People still want to stay in those properties but, yeah, it just really isn't suitable. So I think that there'll be significant changes in the pets. They identified that there was of pet owners two thirds of New Zealand's own pets. That's quite a lot of people. So we love animals and 60% of non-pet owners would like to have one. So it's going to be finding it really hard for landlords to say no pets in the future. I'd say with that change and that change is going through November, so they'll be starting to see some changes in with the select committee at the moment.

Speaker 1: 13:40

So, yeah, I think, yeah, in my previous episode with Rachel you know from Homely Property Management we did cover that there was a pet bond. Yes, oh, that's good that people will have to pay and we looked into it. Whether you know it's per pet that you have to pay the bond, but no, it's just a pet bond.

Speaker 2: 13:58

Yes.

Speaker 1: 13:58

It doesn't matter how many pets you've got you've got to pay the bond.

Speaker 2: 14:08

Yeah, yeah, we find that at the moment, what we do is we have, um, we have four weeks bond and that generally covers the cost of pet damage. Um, but we also have in agreements at the moment, because we don't have legislation at the moment but we we have pet agreements within the tenancy agreement and that just sets out the criteria of how they've got to manage their animals. Yeah, so yeah interesting.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Okay. What else have you learned at that conference, at that agreement, and that just sets out the criteria of how they've got to manage their animals? Yeah, so, yeah, interesting Okay, what else have you learned at that conference? At?

Speaker 2: 14:29

that conference I also learned that Christchurch is a better insurance risk than Wellington, and being an investor in Wellington it's made me think maybe I should diversify a bit, which is always a good thing, as most accountants want you to diversify risk.

Speaker 1: 14:46

Did they explain why? Why would Christchurch be a better?

Speaker 2: 14:50

Because they're now building on lower levels, so they're not building multi-story buildings. Their council regulations are stronger in terms of the structure of how they're building them and they're also building them in areas which are more secure. So if you've been in a red zone, you know you won't be insured in those areas.

Speaker 1: 15:11

So yeah, Well, I guess they've figured it out right.

Speaker 2: 15:14

I know what's a bad area, what's a good area, that's right, and also they've had their big one and we're waiting for ours. So it's a horrible thought. I hope that doesn't happen in my lifetime, but going to Christchurch did give me a really good indication of the things that would happen If that did happen, what impact it would have. So it would totally disrupt your life. You'd have to move from your home, from your city, sometimes totally away.

Speaker 2: 15:46

You would lose people that you loved, which would be terrible. You would have damage to the city and businesses. So it affects the welfare of people that are in business. Because they won't have people to sell, everything will become very tight in the economy. There was delays and building shortages so they didn't have enough people to actually build. So we had to have all our builders move to. Like builders, painters, all the tradies were starting to move to Christchurch, which put pressure everywhere else. On New Zealand, there was a delay in insurance assessments so.

Speaker 2: 16:20

I'm sure that they've got that sorted for next time. But that was. They're still waiting for some assessments and insurance to be finalised and it's been quite a while now. So that was interesting. In terms of landlords that were significant investors in Christchurch, what they found was, from what I could tell, was some of them had self-insured because insurance had got so high, which then they got caught out and they couldn't build. So they're basically land banking those properties because they're basically empty lots.

Speaker 2: 16:51

But the people that did have insurance a lot of the investment properties that we had were at a lower stock level in terms of condition, and so now they've got brand new buildings and they were beautiful. The pictures before and after were quite incredible. So they may have reduced their stock because they had to then sell some properties to cover the ones they had self-insured with because they had that issue. So that was really interesting. Some houses in the red area can't even have insurance any longer, so they basically are still uninsured. People are still buying those houses and renting them out. So that's also really interesting.

Speaker 2: 17:32

You know, in Wellington we would get a sticker attached to the building saying that this is an earthquake risk, but they're still renting them out in Christchurch and people are living in them. Is it legal in Christchurch and people are living in them? Is it legal? I think really, they don't have much choice. You know, people have to live somewhere If that's their home. They have no choice and I think that's what, financially, they got stuck because they couldn't actually move on, which was really sad for them. But I think it's got a lot better.

Speaker 2: 18:04

Christchurch City is totally different now. Yeah, you know, like it's not all about the city. It's a lot further out, it's a bit more spread out, with other venues and things growing, but it is good in terms that you have beautiful buildings, a lot of new builds and houses, but next to it there's a great stately house beside it. So it's quite weird because Christchurch is such an old city. Usually it's all beautiful old buildings, but, yeah, sometimes it's a totally modern one and then an old one. So, yeah, it was really really interesting having a look, and so, yeah, that's sort of what I found by looking around within the insurance part.

Speaker 1: 18:43

Okay, that's awesome, Sorry.

Speaker 2: 18:47

I just thought there was something else coming. I was like, cool. Yeah, I was thinking, what else am I going to say?

Speaker 1: 18:50

I think you had me so captivated that I was like, wow, this is awesome.

Speaker 2: 18:54

Yeah, definitely worth going to the conference. You get that opportunity to meet like-minded people Once a year in. October. So start saving. It's worth going.

Speaker 1: 19:04

It's a total tax-deductible event for investors They've got those in the council.

Speaker 2: 19:08

Yep, and it's the best money you could spend because you get updated with all the changes in legislation Nice, so it's sort of like over a weekend. It's very heavy going because there's so much, but it's just so insightful and so knowledgeable. You get all that information in one go.

Speaker 1: 19:26

That's awesome. It's like a boot camp. It is Okay, so that's good. And on one go, that's awesome. It's like a boot camp, it is Okay, so that's good. And in terms of you as a property manager, I guess you've got a really cool toolkit of skills that you're bringing in right. Yes, so if someone was to talk to you and choose you as a property manager, you can also sort of unofficially share some accounting tips and your own journey. So tell me a little bit more how that goes when you're trying to….

Speaker 2: 19:56

When I've got a new client. Yeah, when I've got a new client, I don't actually give them accounting tips. I do refer them to a very good accountant that I know. I do give them some guidance based on my own experience and what I've achieved.

Speaker 2: 20:11

Some things are really obvious. Sometimes, even in the mortgage-broking situation, some people have tried to carry on with the interest only and the bank said no. But they don't think about asking for an interest holiday because things are tight. They've lost their job, they've got to go to Australia. They haven't rented their property yet they may have moved to Australia. They're paying two mortgage and a rent. You know that situation is just a timing issue. Really, banks will help you with that situation. Some people just don't know. They don't know what options they actually have. So that's where I can actually help them Sometimes.

Speaker 2: 20:53

I recently just had an investor Actually, he's tossing up whether he's going to give it to me, but I'm pretty sure he will but he started off wanting to rent his property and then he ended up deciding well, maybe I'll sell.

Speaker 2: 21:07

And I think a lot of landlords are starting to think in that way, because we're all ageing as well, so we need to actually sell our properties down to be able to, because the reason we do it is for our retirement or for passing it on to our children, like you, sebenizo, and so we need to sell them. So sometimes, landlords, it's just natural instinct, as an investor never wants to sell a property and it's really hard for them to grapple with. Maybe they should sell at this point in time that they're just they don't want a property manager. They really want to change their lifestyle. So sometimes I don't get the property, but I do meet some wonderful people and I love that and I love being able to help whether I get the property. But I do meet some wonderful people and I love that and I love being able to help whether I get the property or not.

Speaker 1: 21:53

Yeah, and I think that's what it comes down to. Right is building those relationships, because you never know I mean, you didn't get it this round, but maybe in two years' time or whatever, things change.

Speaker 2: 22:03

Oh, definitely, and they always refer if they like you and they've met you and you've helped them. Even when you didn't get anything from that, they'll refer you to their friends. They'll say oh, I spoke to this woman she was talking about, and actually she didn't even rent my property, but she helped me sell it.

Speaker 2: 22:24

I don't sell it, but I can pass you on to people that can sell properties and they have investor buyers. So that's also really good because you don't have to go and advertise your property. You can actually just it gets passed around to investors. It doesn't even hit the market for certain people.

Speaker 1: 22:40

So five minutes of fame for your company. Tell us a little bit about Avery Rentals. Who is your ideal client? What sort of properties are you dealing with? Can you do Airbnbs, or is it just rentals or holiday homes? You know? Give me the whole picture.

Speaker 2: 22:57

I won't be able to remember all that Zeveny, but okay. So Avery Rental, we do residential, mainly residential properties, but we also deal with a lot of investors. Actually, my business partner, Lydia most of her properties are actually for investors. I'm finding most of my properties are actually for residential owners that want a change in lifestyle. They're going overseas. They might just have their first investment. So they're the people that I love because I can actually help them. And so we are different like that. Both me and Lydia are investors, so we understand what investors want.

Speaker 2: 23:33

We also our company's a little bit different than most other property managers. Management companies we don't get. We're not getting to the point of wanting to get bigger and bigger and bigger and having staff. We actually prefer to have contractors that own their own business within our business, and that's effectively what we are individually. We have our own portfolio base and so when you get a property manager and you meet me, you are getting me. I'm not going anywhere, I'm not going to change a job. I love what I do, I'm growing my business and, yeah, I'm there to help the people that I look after. And the same with Lydia. And looking after an investor and looking after a homeowner is slightly different Because I think, as a homeowner, you'll be more….

Speaker 2: 24:18

You are very attached to your property Thank you for saying that, yeah and you're very particular on who you want on your property. So you really want to get the right person. You want someone to come back. When they come back, they don't want to see any damage whatsoever and they want to feel like the house is loved and that someone loves living in it.

Speaker 2: 24:35

That's what they're really looking, whereas an investor is thinking get me the most rent you can get me. I don't want to put too much maintenance on the property, so just do what legislation requires me to do. And, yeah, look after the tenants. Make sure there's no down rent. That's an investor.

Speaker 1: 24:55

No feelings attached.

Speaker 2: 24:57

No feelings attached. Strictly business, strictly business, and they treat it as a business, whereas an owner treats it as their home. So it's two different views, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:08

Wow, that's a really cool insight. Now that we've learned about your company, I would like to learn a little bit about you as a person.

Speaker 2: 25:16

Okay.

Speaker 1: 25:18

Tell me about your family dynamics. You mentioned you've got children so what are? They up to in their investment journey.

Speaker 2: 25:25

Okay, I have two girls. My daughter, emma, is a builder so she's training to be a qualified builder.

Speaker 2: 25:31

I'm very proud of her and she's saving hard to basically get a deposit to ready to do her first investment property At this stage. When I talked about the combining of syndicates, effectively that's what we're thinking about doing. I have a lot of equity in my properties so I'm thinking well, I can be part with Emma. She has the cash flow and the income. You know, property management being in business is harder for banks to give you the money. So the combination of her being in a normal job and me having the equity, that's a perfect combination and it gets her into the cycle.

Speaker 2: 26:13

Kennedy is my second daughter. She's an early childhood teacher. She's doing a PhD in early childhood. She loves that. She's not sure about property management. She sees what we do and she's not sure she wants to do that sort of level Like Emma's. Very hands-on, really loves doing renovations and decorating and maintenance. Kennedy does not want to get her fingernails broken, okay. She doesn't want to get dirty and definitely doesn't want any dust or paint stuck to her you know. So totally two different girls. She's more interested in shares. Actually, both of them invest in shares and we sort of encourage them to do a wider choice of investments, rather than when we grew up, we didn't do anything but property. It was all property. When you get to the end of your property cycle and actually a lot of investors don't like investing in shares, but that's probably because of their age the markets have made it much easier to get into it with the apps.

Speaker 1: 27:20

ShareZs.

Speaker 2: 27:21

ShareZs exactly, so it's much easier to get into that now and most younger people are into it, which is great. So the environment has totally changed. So I don't think either is wrong.

Speaker 1: 27:33

I think both are good.

Speaker 2: 27:36

Different prospects. It'll be interesting to see how they both go long term.

Speaker 1: 27:39

I'll give you a fun fact through my career of dealing with different people and occupations and I find usually when I come across teachers whether they are high school teachers, primary school teachers or kindy kindergarten teachers, daycares they're very risk-adverse when it comes to property. They all come to me they want to buy an investment property, but then when we go along the journey they go oh, they get very cold feet.

Speaker 1: 28:06

So it's really interesting that you mentioned this about your daughter. That's what I found is that teachers completely different breed of their brain is wired differently, I think she's.

Speaker 2: 28:18

When it comes to properties. Yeah, she's been wanting to get into property, but she's and she's had friends that have had got into property early but because they've bought high and then the interest rates have gone up, they've been under financial stress and then they've had to sell. So she's just thought, oh, if I'd done that, that's exactly what would have happened to me. So she's a bit more cautious. She's, you know, thinks that she'll. I'm not sure if she'll buy. We try to encourage her to come in the syndicate, but I don't know if she will. So yeah, we'll just see what happens in the long term.

Speaker 1: 28:54

All right, Well, you did really well. Now I'm going to fire some questions to you and you just tell me Okay, I'll come back to you if I don't know the answer. What gets you out of bed?

Speaker 2: 29:09

Oh, a lot of work, a lot of emails and a lot of people ringing me.

Speaker 1: 29:14

If.

Speaker 2: 29:15

I don't get out of bed. I've got these people harassing me, but no, I just really love seeing my business grow and I love meeting the people. So, yeah, I work probably six, seven days a week almost at the moment. I'm hoping it will reduce at some point, but yeah, I just love it.

Speaker 1: 29:34

Yeah, make sure you look after yourself, because in this role, especially when you're self-employed it's very easy to burn out. Case in point yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:42

I know I've got a bit of a habit of that myself, so I'm sort of trying to get back into going for walks and I need to go back to the gym. Okay, Isaac. So yeah, that's the plan. I totally agree.

Speaker 1: 29:54

My question you know what keeps you positive? Because it's such a stressful sometimes environment to be in. Yeah, when things go wrong, you know you have to go and fix things. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:04

I don't get stressed about that sort of thing. I get stressed when I don't take action.

Speaker 2: 30:10

So it's really more about making sure I'm totally on top of everything and taking action, getting things fixed. If I start to procrastinate too much, lydia gives me a kick. So she'll say Shona, you haven't done this. But I don't get that very often, but yeah, so she's sort of my you know, backup person that will just keep me in check. But, yeah, most of the time I know myself what happens if I don't keep up with the workload and the calls. Cool.

Speaker 1: 30:40

Yeah Well, Shawna, thank you so much. We'll wrap it up here. Do you want to tell where we can find you?

Speaker 2: 30:47

Oh, yes, you can get in touch with me on 0275 636 979 on my phone. Please text, don't leave a call. Also, averyrentalconz will take you to my website, and I have an Instagram page as well shonapropertymanager. That Instagram page shows tenants possible properties that are coming up before it hits the market and also provides some information to landlords that might be of interest Awesome. Thank you very much, Zeveniza, for this time to meet you and spend time with your following, so thank you.

Speaker 1: 31:23

Thank you so much for coming along. Have a wonderful week ahead.

Speaker 2: 31:26

Yeah, you too. Thank you very much, bye, bye.