Speaker 1: 0:28

Hello and welcome to Tracy Piven from the Law Connection. Tracy, hello, thank you so much for joining me today. Hello, ziva, thank you very much for the invitation. Not often you invite a lawyer into your house, so let's start with that. Oh, thank you. So thank you, tracy. For those that don't know about who you are and what you do, can we just start with a brief introduction about? Yeah, tell me a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Hi, my name's Tracy Puvana. I'm a lawyer and a director of the Law Connection. We have offices in both Waikanae and Raumati. I am proud mum of two daughters and married to Andy. I love married to Andy. I don't mean to last him last, but that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:18

I'm so sorry. I think I said your surname wrong in the beginning, but I think it's my accent. It's okay, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:23

There's all sorts of pronunciations if we have unusual last names, so I don't stand on ceremony. Where does the surname originate from, I ask? My husband's family are originally well from Croatia, on the Dalmatian coast.

Speaker 1: 1:37

Yeah, so that's where that comes from. I think that's why I said it in that Slavic way.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Yes, well, I'm probably the one pronouncing it incorrectly.

Speaker 1: 1:47

That's okay, Tracy. So how long have you been a lawyer? What led you to take this path?

Speaker 2: 1:53

Well, I think. I mean, I always wanted to study the law back in the day and this is probably revealing my age but there was a TV program called Hill Street Blues and on that there was a lady lawyer and I think she was a district attorney and I thought, wow, that's who I want to be when I grow up. So I decided that the law was for me. When I got to university, I also decided that being a poor student wasn't necessarily for me either, and I postponed my studies and went off and worked for several years and then thought to myself well, I think it's time to grow up. And I went back to university and got my degree.

Speaker 2: 2:33

we finished it, actually yeah so I think that what drives me is the need to help people, and the law enables me to do that.

Speaker 1: 2:44

So what sort of law are you involved in?

Speaker 2: 2:46

I'm what you would call a general practitioner. It's simply put. That means that I can help with most things what our firm don't practice in the area of employment law and court work. We used to have a litigator, but he retired and we haven't replaced them, so yeah, pretty much everything that you might need help with either myself or one of my colleagues.

Speaker 1: 3:11

Yeah, because you're a director. Yes, that's right, you're a big shot person, so that's why we're friends.

Speaker 2: 3:21

If you mean by director, the buck stops with those with that title yes, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 3:26

So how many lawyers have you got in your firm?

Speaker 2: 3:28

Well, we're really excited because we've just actually taken on board two new lawyers and they are job sharing, and that's Megan and Anna, and so that has increased our numbers. So there's myself, my fellow directors Rosemary and Peter, and then we have general practitioners like myself, and then we have Sally and Fiona, and now Anna and Megan. Wow, yeah, we're really really excited. It's nice to be what we call full strength and back up to a full team.

Speaker 1: 4:00

We've been short for a little bit. You have been, and I know the struggle has been real, I mean across different occupations in New Zealand. I know it's really hard to find people to work because a lot of people are living for better, greener pastures.

Speaker 2: 4:14

Yeah, and highly experienced lawyers are hard to come by. And, of course, when I've discussed all our lawyers' names, you'll notice that they're mostly, or almost all, women, and that is a sign of the times, because it is mostly women. You know, there's a greater proportion of women graduates coming out of law schools now.

Speaker 1: 4:33

Wow, Because historically I mean predominantly that industry has been led by males. Am I correct, yeah, To say that? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 4:42

Okay, yeah, so poor Peter, he's getting old numbers. He's the sole rose Wow.

Speaker 1: 4:51

Yeah, so what do you think is leading that change? Why do you think is leading that change? Why do you think more?

Speaker 2: 4:55

females are coming out. I don't know. I mean, that's probably an area that's not really my expertise, but if I was to guess, I think it's because women are naturally nurturers. They want to help solve problems. The law enables them to do that and we're all a product now of the women can do anything movement. We've seen those generations come through. We've got strong women advocates out there, we have strong women peers and we're just stepping up, you know, and I think that the law just gives a good showcase or position for women to do what they want to do. I couldn't say Each woman's journey is different.

Speaker 1: 5:37

And I guess it's empowering for your girls as well, growing up to see that you can do anything in life these days.

Speaker 2: 5:45

Yeah, I mean, I'm very lucky. My girls are happy, healthy, and that's all you can ask for as a parent, as you know. But yeah, I would love to see that. I'd like to think I should say that I'm a peer or someone to look up to for your girls, but when you're standing there having an argument about who puts what away in the refrigerator or the dishwasher, I'm struggling to find that.

Speaker 1: 6:12

Yeah, and it just proves again that you're human too. You know, it's incredible when, in our professions, you know people see us as the professionals and you know we work and we work hard and we get people across the line and we solve the problems, but actually when we all come home we all have the same issues that we face.

Speaker 2: 6:32

That's exactly right. Yeah, and I think you know you hear a lot of times people talking about a work-life balance. I don't know about you, zebeniso, but I really struggle getting there, and I think it's a common theme. But you know I have made a determined effort in the last few months to try and get back on the work-life balance. I don't, I don't think it exists.

Speaker 1: 6:56

I'm sorry to break that. No, I think. I think we just go through phases, right. I mean, some months are better, Some weeks are better, Some days are better, and I and I see this with my kids you know, certain weeks, the absolute agent, angels, and you know everything goes as much as it can be.

Speaker 1: 7:12

What's your secret? I'm Russian, I'm kidding, I'm not Russian, originally from Soviet Union, you know. So I think the upbringing that we had is very, very different and I think that still has echoed in me and into my parenting. It has flown on. So we often have those chats with my children that, yes, you are growing up in New Zealand, but hey, remember that your parents are from Soviet Union, so you will get told off in a very different way. But, tracy, we just deviated a little bit, but tell me a little bit about what you see at the moment through your clients. Do you see a lot more first home buyers? Do you see a lot more first home buyers? Do you see a lot more investors? Because this is what people want to know. You know, what do they need to do right now? Should they be jumping on the ladder or jumping off the ladder?

Speaker 2: 8:02

I think it's what we're seeing is there definitely been a quietening in the conveyancing space, but things are picking up now and with the reduction in the interest rates, more contracts are coming through to us. But we're also seeing that first-time buyer market move again in terms of conveyancing, obviously. But for us, those, those first-time buyers I haven't seen a lot of investors, though, as yet. But that's only. I need to gauge. The other team members, and you know, do that at our little management meeting. So I should have done that before I came in so I could give you some stats and sound like I have all this information to hand. But for us it's very much across the board. But you know, the first time people are definitely coming back into the market and that's good to see, because I mean, you and I both know that it's so really rewarding, yeah, um working with those first-time buyers and getting them into their houses absolutely.

Speaker 1: 9:02

Um, you know, every time when someone says to me who's my ideal client, I'm like those first-time buyers, you just absolutely adore them absolutely. I mean, I love helping everyone, yeah, but with the first-time buyers there's something special about them. It's like having a first baby for the first time. You know, you just have no idea. You know they have no idea what they're doing and you have to lead them through their journey and it's just beautiful when you see their eyes sparkle and they go oh, finally in the home Tracy in terms of so purchasing a property, no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 9:45

No, there's a lot. There's a lot that first-time buyers have to experience and learn and understand, and I think if I had to summarise it, it would be find yourself a good team right, find yourself a good lawyer, find yourself a good broker and work and use those folk to be able to leverage off their knowledge. So, for example, if you're wanting to make an offer on a property and you're unsure, call your lawyer. Make sure that you've got the clauses you need in that contract. In there it's up to you to make that decision. But often you don't realise that that's the position that you're in. You actually hold the power making the offer. So you know, call your lawyer. I would tell you which conditions to put into the contract.

Speaker 2: 10:33

I'd discuss with you your availability of deposit, because deposit is a really big issue for first-time buyers. Often there's not a lot of cash in the budget for the deposit, as you know, and you can't always rely on KiwiSaver for your deposit monies due to different undertakings that various KiwiSaver providers ask lawyers to give and, in short, a lot of lawyers will not give those undertakings okay because they are very, very burdensome on them. So we can go on for hours about that and I don't want to bore you, but the other thing I think for a first-time buyer is to know is that you can actually talk to your lawyer. You don't have to be afraid of them. I see a great deal of comfort level when they're talking with you Zeb and Iso, for example and they're talking about the money and things, but they're always a little bit nervous about the lawyer.

Speaker 1: 11:27

I'm still nervous with you too, tracey and lawyer, I'm still nervous with you too, tracy and I mean we've been friends for years.

Speaker 2: 11:33

But yeah, I would like to say to you as a first-time buyer don't be afraid, ask the questions and be prepared to miss out. Don't take it personally. It's a learning curve. You'll probably miss out on one, two. I mean I've been with first-time buyers. They've missed out on five properties. Wow, but they've persevered and by the time we get to contract three, they're not asking me what to put in the contract anymore, because they know exactly what to put in it. They become experts on filling in the contract.

Speaker 2: 12:00

Yeah, so yeah, and you know, talk to your real estate agent, ask questions, don, ask questions. Don't ask the obvious ones. Have a look at the disclosures about the property and ask specific questions about those. Don't be afraid to ask. It's your one and only chance. If you're planning to put in an offer and leverage off the experts that are out there, there are building inspectors that you can use. There are the LIM reports you can get from your local council. There is information out there and you should make sure that you have completed your due diligence or looked at all of that as part of the buying process.

Speaker 1: 12:39

As you were talking, a question that sprung into my head that a lot of buyers always ask me do the lawyers read the LIM report? You know how, if they put a condition that they need also LIM report, and then I see buyers sending the LIM report. You know if they put a condition that they need also LIM report, and then I see buyers sending the LIM report to the lawyers Do you guys actually read the whole 50 pages or 100 pages?

Speaker 2: 12:58

Well, yes, if we're asked to. Okay, now I can't speak for other law firms but for ours. We charge a set fee for a purchase. But with a LIM report there's a whole as you know. There's 50-something-odd pages in there. There is more work involved in that. That's outside of what we'd normally do. So that's charged on a time and attendance basis and I would say that you should allow about 20 minutes for that. It really depends on the LIM report. But yes, I absolutely do read them and I can't say they're interesting.

Speaker 2: 13:30

Lim report. But yes, I absolutely do read them and I can't say they're interesting. They're a lot like mortgage documents, no offence, they're really good for insomnia and you can't make something like that terribly interesting. But you try your best and the key is we're looking out for those things that are going to trip our people up or that they need to be aware of so they can make an informed decision. In some of those cases they have to come back to you and let you know because, for example, if it's in a flooding zone, it could affect bank finance, it could affect insurance. There's a whole lot of things. So that's why it's really good to have the team a team to work with you.

Speaker 1: 14:09

So limb reports are important, right? That's what I'm hearing, because sometimes people are umming and humming whether they should get it or not, or whether they should put that as a condition.

Speaker 2: 14:19

Well, they disclose things that aren't always on the title. You know, for example, there could have been a number of call-outs for drainage problems and they'll be reflected in a LIM report. I had one that came from Wellington for a client who was looking at buying a property in there, and there were numerous call outs listed in the LIM report of plumbing issues and some were not directly a result of that particular property, but others others were, so that they knew that they could look further and say get a plumber in to check it out for themselves. So things like that.

Speaker 1: 14:56

Okay, no, that sounds good. The other one that always trips up my people is that they forget to tell their solicitors that they have KiwiSaver when it comes to settlement. And then they go oh, actually I'm going to use my KiwiSaver. How much notice do you guys need?

Speaker 2: 15:11

Look, I think from my perspective that's one of the very first questions out of my mouth. It used to be. You also had the first home subsidy as well that you could get, so those were the first questions. Are you going to be relying on these for your purchase? Who is your KiwiSaver with? And after a while you get to know the different KiwiSaver providers and whether they want the 10 working days or the 15 working days or what they're more likely to rely on, and it's that kind of stuff, so we can talk about it straight away and find out what exactly percentage of the purchase price is being supplied by the KiwiSaver, and a lot of the time you also furnish that information where possible as part of the process, if we're involved in managing clients together.

Speaker 1: 16:01

Yeah, usually when I refer my clients to you or to anyone else, I would normally put you know here's the purchase price, here is the deposit and we are using KiwiSaver. Just putting it on your radar Because I know sometimes clients don't realize they have to let the important people know about the.

Speaker 2: 16:19

KiwiSaver. Yeah, yeah, but it absolutely is fundamental because it takes between 10 and 15 working days from the time an application is received by your KiwiSaver provider to pay out the money. And it can go beyond that if you have been out of the country and you have stopped contributions or you've restarted contributions and the KiwiSaver provider needs to work all of that out. That's why they need the 15 working days. So it's really, really important that you flag that to your lawyer. And also, what I always say is get a hold of your KiwiSaver provider and say well, look, I'm planning to purchase a house. Can you just tell me on a preliminary basis whether I would qualify as a first home buyer payment? Can I have the release of my funds from that point, rather than wait? Submit the application once we're underway, once your contract's unconditional.

Speaker 1: 17:24

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:25

Just so you have a A you're in their system, but B, you have that peace of mind. Yeah, yeah, that of mind. Yeah, yeah that is possible?

Speaker 1: 17:32

Yeah, Because also a lot of concern is coming through at the moment from people that can they use this KiwiSaver for a second chance. So a lot of people think they can't use the KiwiSaver but I know there have been cases where we can. Can you tell me a little bit more about your experience with the second chance KiwiSavers?

Speaker 2: 17:50

Yes, have you had any? Yes, I've had one. They're not uncommon, but it's just what's crossed. My desk is one and in that situation it was where there had been a relationship breakdown and both parties had separated and they were able to apply when they went to buy their own respective properties later on for a second chance to use their KiwiSaver again afterwards because it had been a property separation. But you need to flag that early to your KiwiSaver provider and also your lawyer.

Speaker 2: 18:29

But make those inquiries of your KiwiSaver provider because if they want copies of a separation agreement or they want copies of other documentation to support your application, it's best to get that underway and at least have that part of it giving you peace of mind. I mean, you would know anyway because they would be working with you. But I think as much as you can do in advance to give yourself a peace of mind and to get the wheels moving, I think it's a really good way. Now don't get me wrong. I know for a first-time buyer or even in the situation where you've got a second chance, the information overload is massive. Yeah Right. So if you're not comfortable in that space, just flag it to your lawyer, say, can you do this for me and it'll be done, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 19:18

Thank you for that tip. As you were talking, I was thinking about when you said wills. It reminded me of wills, wills and wills, but I find a lot of Kiwis don't have wills in place, does that?

Speaker 2: 19:34

concern you? Yeah, I've got to be honest, it's one of my biggest concerns. Before my life as a lawyer. I was and I worked for a national trustee company and the number of people's estates who I was involved in administering, where they had no wills, was overwhelming. And I still see that now when I get the law magazines and I see have you got a will for this person? Or this person has died in test state.

Speaker 2: 20:05

And it seems to me that there is two schools of thoughts. One, people think that wills aren't necessary because they don't have anything. And I ask you to think about this question Do I have KiwiSaver? Do I have a superannuation policy at work? Am I given life insurance cover at work? Do I have a car? Do I have over $15,000 in my own sole name as an asset?

Speaker 2: 20:33

And if you do, it is essential that you complete a will or review your will, because that means that you would need to apply for a grant of probate from the court. Now, probate is the proving of an original will to the court and gives the authority to the executor that's, the person who you choose to carry out your wishes the right to be able to manage and administer your estate If you do not have a will. What you need to do then is approach a trustee company or not giving them a plug but someone like myself with years of experience to be able to make an application for what are called letters of administration. Now, this is not a straightforward process like it is with a will. There's a lot more documentation together and there are more hoops to jump through.

Speaker 2: 21:21

So what I would do is I would say to you, for the price of a will, which might be $350 versus nearly $2,000 worth of legal fees for letters of administration, please, please, please, think about it, save it up, put aside your coffee money for a couple of months and do that will, because you cannot understand until you're in that situation, zebany. So how incredibly stressful it is for the family to try and not only deal with the grief, but then to know that they have to go through this extra process for letters of administration where there's no will. Yeah, yeah, there's a huge number of New Zealanders without wills and it's not. It doesn't seem to me as if it's diminishing.

Speaker 1: 22:07

Yeah, Isn't it bizarre that there are certain things in New Zealand that like absolute must, you must have this or you must have that, but then there are certain things that you just don't. You know, important things like this that you just don't have.

Speaker 2: 22:21

Well, the same could be said for enduring powers of attorney. We all, I think that. I don't mean to overly generalise, but I think there's a school of thought out there that you don't get enduring powers of attorney until you're old, because only then are you likely to lose your mental capacity. But that's just simply not true. If you are in a situation where you lose your mental capacity for whatever reason, these documents enable someone who you have appointed to step in and act on your behalf.

Speaker 2: 22:51

If you don't have those documents in place, it means someone has to apply to the family court to be appointed as your personal care and welfare guardian and your property manager, and you might not like who it is. You don't get a choice in that instance, and it involves the family court. It involves often thousands of dollars worth of fees and, without being rude, some substantial delays from the court. So in the meantime, if you've got assets, a house or anything like that that needs managing all your business, nobody can do anything. So you really really need, with your will, enduring powers of attorney.

Speaker 1: 23:31

Okay, that's a big tick in my box here. Thank you so much. I think you raised a really valid point in here, because I am dealing with few at the moment that are sort of in that situation where there is no will and it's gone to interstate in here, because I am dealing with few at the moment that are sort of in that situation where there is no will and it's going to interstate, and then it's also the ones that have the will and how do we deal with that? So we've covered the wills, we've covered the first-time buyers. I would love to talk to you about separations and what people should know, because I find that in my line of work I deal with a lot of separations. What sort of tips would you have for someone that's looking to separate or separating at the moment in terms of, when it comes to legal stuff, what they should be thinking about?

Speaker 2: 24:10

Oh yeah, it's so different for everybody. But I understand what you're asking me. First of all, don't put so much pressure on yourself to do everything all at once. If you are concerned and you're worried, come and see a lawyer. Don't sit there worrying, worrying. You're already in a highly stressful situation.

Speaker 2: 24:36

What sometimes you just need is someone to hear what you have to say and to say, well, okay, this is what we can do going forward. How do you feel about that? What is it you want? What are your outcomes you're looking for here? Are there children involved? Are you having to live in the same property?

Speaker 2: 24:55

I've seen that a great deal and it puts an enormous strain on relationships because you get the separating couple who are also trying to be there for their children. So all I can say is gather what you can in terms of your information in respect of your financials so this is statements of account from your bank if you're in business, your last couple of years worth of business financials prepared by your accountant, details of who your accountant are anything to do with your debts, so anything financial and bring that along to your lawyer. What you can bring and supply to them. They don't have to ask you for, you know, because the reason that lawyers need that information isn't because they're nosy, it is because, when we get to the point where we can have, we have drafted a separation agreement and the parties are happy with it and they're ready to sign.

Speaker 2: 25:57

At the very end there's a clause that lawyers have to read through and sign, a clause that lawyers have to read through and sign and it says that I have discussed with my client all the details but, importantly, the effects and implications of what's in that agreement with them. Now, if we're talking about financial assets in that agreement and we're saying we've split the KiwiSaver, for example, if I haven't seen a copy of the KiwiSaver statement, I can't in all good conscience have said I have discussed the effects and implications when, a I haven't seen that document and, b I don't know the amount we're talking about. So that is why in these agreements there is a schedule where assets are listed and we ask for disclosure of the information from each party and that agreement says that you've disclosed honestly and given everything that you have to each other. But you know all the assets, you know all the debts.

Speaker 1: 26:56

There's nothing hidden and once it's signed, it's final right. The other party cannot come back in the future and be like, hey, I've been, you know, thinking I don't think it's right, right. The other party cannot come back in the future and be like, hey, I've been thinking I don't think it's right, I need more money, give me more money, etc.

Speaker 2: 27:11

Yes, one of the purposes of the Act is to enable people to make a clean break, so the agreements are designed to cover all situations and not be challenged, but there can be situations where there are unfortunately Not. Full disclosure is one of them. There are court cases surrounding this type of legislation where there have been these agreements challenged and they are absolutely designed to be 100% final. Okay, but there is always the chance that something. There will be a situation probably where they may be challenged. They're very specific, okay.

Speaker 1: 28:00

Okay, what's the worst you've seen in your career? Like the worst case that ever went absolutely sour, not in separations, but just anything. What's like the worst that kept you up at night.

Speaker 2: 28:15

I think it's inner states. I've got to be honest. Sometimes the grief drives people to act in ways they've never acted before and you never know what's going on in people's lives. So sometimes money becomes the driver as well. And what upsets, I think. What upsets any lawyer is seeing, where families are broken apart because of money, or mum said she would give that to me and dad already gave that to me before he died. Those type of things. That's really upsetting and I know it sounds trite, but when you've seen families who have had good relationships for years and it all devolves into grief and nastiness, on the death of a loved one because of money.

Speaker 2: 29:07

that's pretty pretty devastating and horrible to deal with and you know, as the lawyer, my job's to sit in there and kind of be the bad guy because I'm I'm trying to do what I'm advocating for my client, um, and at the end of the day, if there's going to be some nastiness directed at someone, you know forward at me, I'll try and save the family members because they're already going through enough. But it is really hard in those situations. I've seen a family member come to blows, nearly come to blows, over a kangaroo skin and a bag of fabric scraps.

Speaker 1: 29:43

No joke, it must have been very, very special to them, or do you think it was just that?

Speaker 2: 29:50

I think it was symbolic. Really, there had been a breakdown in the relationship and that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. But those are the worst things.

Speaker 1: 29:59

to be fair, that is heartbreaking when you see that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2: 30:02

Yeah, and how humans, as you say, humans can change from loving and kind to yeah, because when it gets to the court stage if someone makes a claim under the Family Protection Act, for example then affidavits are prepared and some of the stuff that is written in those affidavits would break your heart and I have seen family members cry, literally cry, reading those affidavits. What other family members have said about them? Yeah, because they're supposed to be statements of fact, but they can be brutal.

Speaker 1: 30:39

I really don't know how you do your job honestly. Honestly, tracey, I take my head off to you. Thank you for thank you for being in this world and thank you for being so positive. I mean, you're probably one of the most positive lawyers I know and that's why I think we get along so well, because every time we get together we always have lots of laughs, um. So today was really interesting how we spoke um on a very, very serious note here and and touched on some.

Speaker 2: 31:02

Yeah, it's been all dark hasn't it?

Speaker 1: 31:03

Yeah, yeah, we did go all dark today, so, to lightening it up, I'm going to ask you this final question that I ask of everyone now is what fills your cup, what makes you happy, what brings you joy?

Speaker 2: 31:15

Well, I have to say, you know, well, I don't have to say, but I'd like to say, and I want to say family. I'd like to say and I want to say family and family, friends being well, being happy, everybody being in a good place, that fills my cup. But also meeting new people talking about my job, talking to people like you, positive, happy people fill my cup and that is why I really enjoy working with people, because I can turn something around. There is no better sense of satisfaction than finishing something that has the perfect outcome for anybody right Client, family members, anything like that Positive people that's what fills my cup.

Speaker 1: 31:59

I love it. I love it, tracy, thank you so much. On this beautiful, positive note, I would love to say thank you for coming today. Absolute honor to have you. And oh, we forgot to give a shout out to you. Where do people find you?

Speaker 2: 32:14

Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1: 32:15

Give yourself five seconds of fame Go.

Speaker 2: 32:18

Well, the Law Connection, that's who we are. We have offices in Raumati, at the Village, at 19 Raumati Road, raumati, and then we have our office at 590 Road in Waikanae, and we're always open. Come in and see us. We have a great team, we love people, we'd love to help you and there is nothing that's too much of a problem, because our team go the extra mile.

Speaker 1: 32:40

Love it. Oh, that was awesome. That was awesome, Tracey. Thank you once again. Have a fantastic week ahead and would love to have you back on the show at some point.

Speaker 2: 32:51

Pleasure. Thank you for the invite.

Speaker 1: 32:53

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 32:54

Goodbye, bye.